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1981capri
Navigator

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USA
175 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2007 : 09:31:12

Kevin - I hope you are not suffering from SAD(seasonal affective disorder). I know how tough it can be as we approach the winter solstice here in the Great NW above 45N. The days get so short and what light we do get is filtered thru heavy cloud cover many days. Sometimes it seems like we are living in the twilight zone. Then throw in the holidays(and in your case buying a new boat) and it can be a very stressful time. Anyway, thanks and good luck. I hope to see you on the river next summer when it doesn't get dark until 10 PM.

Edited by - on

kevinmac
Admiral

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USA
732 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2007 : 10:20:24

Nah. I just brought my boat back from Rocky Point to Hayden Bay on Saturday, and almost got sunburned it was so nice (cold, but clear and sunny). I'll be in San Diego tonight for two days. So SAD ain't it. Anyway, I have lived here for 30 years, never been bother by the weather, I like it here.

Kevin

Edited by - on

1981capri
Navigator

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USA
175 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2007 : 12:45:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">So SAD ain't it. Anyway, I have lived here for 30 years, never been bother by the weather, I like it here.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Oh,good!!! Of course now I am terribly embarrassed. I didn't mean to insinuate that you were not on an even keel. Glad you are back at Hayden Bay. My boat was looking a little lonely with so many people hauling out for the winter. I love it here too, especially in the summer, but this time of year I often find myself daydreaming about the Carribean.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2007 : 12:47:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 FWIW, this particular topic is getting the association a little bad press elsewhere...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Bad press? Some outside "observers" are compelled to conjure up dissention and conspiracies wherever everyone else is having a good time (but them). I'd observe that we're having a totally constructive discussion here--if his comment leads somebody to look at it, it's our gain and his loss.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2007 : 14:42:12

I agree, Dave. As I said in my comment "over there" this is a healthy discussion.

Edited by - on

kevinmac
Admiral

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USA
732 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2007 : 14:48:34

Dan,

Are you in Hayden Bay? Or where? We gotta get together, do some sailing!

Kevin

Edited by - on

1981capri
Navigator

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USA
175 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2007 : 17:41:23

Kevin - Yes, our boat is at Hayden Bay. It just goes to show you why you should be careful what you say on this forum...you never know who might be lurking in the slip right next to you. Actually I was just down there this afternoon scrubbing my decks. It was nice to see Dogs Allowed back in her slip. As far as going sailing, just say the word. I do web programming from my home office so I am pretty flexible.

Edited by - on

kevinmac
Admiral

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USA
732 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2007 : 01:53:22

Yow! A fellow member lurking in the marina! ;-)

What slip are you in?

I am in San Diego working on survey for the new boat, will be back tomorrow night...

We are fated to meet... ;-)

Kevin

Edited by - on

Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2007 : 06:01:47

I'm getting in here late, but I perceive that a group in leadership has proposed an increase in dues to support some sort of event, mainly racing. I'm wondering if the model that we have used in the past for putting on the racing event is broken. I only say that because other "industries" have succeeded with this type of event and have not ask members to contribute unless they are participating. One example I could give is what my brother has accomplished in the Toyota FJ off road events that he started in Colorado (He is from Dallas).

The event was started 3 years ago with a handful of participants and very little money. His last event had over 475 FJ's show up. What was his secret? It is the reason that maybe our racing events don't seem to attract. He makes it a family event. He doesn't center it around one event - off roading. He open it up to venders, camping, food events, and has ask Toyota and third party venders to help[ fund the event. Toyota shows up with their latest vehicles and puts on seminars, venders peddle their wares, and all have a good time. The guys bring their wives and kids.

Jeep has similar events. Camp jeep now happens over 20 locations each year. People pay up to $275/person to go and each event is sold out way before hand. All food and events are provided for the entrance fee. Many venders show up and guess what? It is completely geared around the family.

Many may not want to admit, but us sailors are a "different" group. Some of our "admirals" are really not part of our "sport" and have very little interest in a bunch of guys, drinking beer and sailing around buoys for the right to say they are the best.(Hmmm , maybe the beer comes second after sailing)

There is very little for my wife and kids to see or participate in at one of our racing regattas. Hence, there is very little participation by our members.

Now I throw all this out not as a criticism, but as a wake up call to those who organize the events. I don't believe we are fulfilling our potential when we hold the type of "narrow" event that we've held in the past. They are not successful because they only speak to one segment of our membership - the guys. Isn't it conceivable that we could have kids racing, women races, cruising events, raft ups, camping, class on cooking on the boat, venders, how too's, boat show, games, prizes, kids events (on land). Oh and by the way, the guys can also race. Yea, it take a tremendous amount of organization to do this, but if it becomes fun again, it makes it so much easier.

And by the way, as in my brothers experience, it pays for itself and makes for a stonger bond within the membership.

Edited by - Turk on 12/12/2007 06:06:38

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2007 : 07:39:55

With only very minor exceptions, the C25 National Regatta has always been sponsored by local organizers, so that no costs are paid by the National Association. Recently, the National Association has tried to attract more people to various events by organizing social get-togethers at a local restaurant, and paying for the meals of the members who attend, and their families. The idea was well-intentioned and well worth trying, but, in my opinion, the results don't justify the drain on our small treasury.

Because of the differences between our National Regatta and your brother's Toyota rally, we could never hope to approximate the results that he has achieved. If someone wants to attend the Toyota rally, it sounds like all he has to do is load the Toyota with a cooler, wife, kids, dog, etc. and go. If you want to race in the Catalina Nationals, you have to de-rig your boat, pull it out of the lake, load it on the trailer, take it home, prep the bottom and keel, so that it's ready to race, arrange for crew to attend and help you sail the boat, haul it hundreds of miles, launch it, rig it, race-tune it, practice, race it, and then after the racing is done, take it down, load it up, and haul it home, and then launch and rig it again the next weekend at your home lake. It takes a lot of effort and some expense to race your boat in the nationals. The only reason why any of us go to all that effort is because, in the end, it's a lot of fun to get together with the guys we chat with online, and to race our boats on a more or less one-design basis.

Local organizers of our Regatta usually try to persuade various businesses to sponsor the event by providing door prizes, free beer and other refreshments, but their only real business incentive to do so is the advertising value. But, because we may only have a few dozen people attend the event, and because it doesn't attract news coverage, the advertising value isn't very much. In most cases, I suspect most sponsors contribute just to help us out, and because it doesn't cost them very much. Nevertheless, we usually have surprisingly nice door prizes to give away, such as a new sail, or foul weather gear. As I recall, the last time I attended, there were so many door prizes that everyone who attended got a door prize.

The people who organize our Regatta are volunteers. Nobody makes a profit from the event. When we're not contributing financially to the event, we're not really in a position to dictate, to the volunteer sponsor, what associated activities or events he should offer. Usually, only a small cadre of local volunteers are doing all the organizational work, and they'll have enough to do to cover all the essentials, without also organizing additional activities. However, if any member would like to volunteer to organize some seminars and other activities for non-racing family members, and for youth, they would, I'm sure, be warmly welcomed, because we'd all appreciate anything anyone is willing to do to improve the National Regatta.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2007 : 08:58:30

Every person who buys a Toyota FJ at least dreams of off-roading or they'd buy a Highlander instead, and getting the FJ to an event entails just getting into it and driving it there. Most people who buy a 25' Catalina don't even think about racing, and getting it to an event is as Steve describes, and worse for the substantial majority who don't even own trailers much less 3/4-ton pickups, or whose trailers are fit only for getting from the ramp to the storage area. (...and Capri 25s must travel as wide loads.) If you want to take your boat to national or regional events where a lot of other people will do the same, you need to buy some other boat.

Your resident curmudgeon...

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/12/2007 09:00:28

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2007 : 10:38:41

I think Kevin hit the nail on the head when he said...

1.) The other officers all (I think all, not sure) want to do a dues increase of varying amounts, and I just don't want to do that, I would rather make the mainsheet optional after the first year of membership, or sacrifice the financial support for cruising and racing events, small as it is, that several of the other officers would like to increase.

If the association is experiencing a budget squeeze, one would think financial support for dinners at sailboat shows or subsidizing someones cruising vacation should be eliminated before opting for a dues increase, but to actually favor an increase in financial support for cruising/racing events???

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2007 : 11:52:32

I don't favor a dues increase. When I was Commodore we had something like $14,000 in the bank. That is way too much. We spent some on the web redesign. Run the association as is, with dues as they are or even lower them until this huge excess of $$$ is run down to normal levels (something like $1000).

I was in favor of using the money to send a burgee free to every member. Or a tee shirt.

Face it, the Nationals will die out. No one is racing C25s. J boats are another story. Our boats are fun, tough, economical, and great values. They are not race boats. They are not even good cruising boats. They are great day sailers that can be cruised if you don't mind being crowded and slow or raced if you don't mind being the last boat in.

I love my boat and I enjoy this association. I don't even read the Mainsheet, nor any other sailing magazine.

Don't raise dues. It will kill what remains of this group.

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2007 : 12:01:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 I don't favor a dues increase. When I was Commodore we had something like $14,000 in the bank. That is way too much. We spent some on the web redesign. Run the association as is, with dues as they are or even lower them until this huge excess of $$$ is run down to normal levels (something like $1000).<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Just a reminder that the bank balance almost entirely represents future amounts due in relation to the prepaid Mainsheet subscriptions of the current membership base.

Edited by - on

Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2007 : 13:49:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 
Because of the differences between our National Regatta and your brother's Toyota rally, we could never hope to approximate the results that he has achieved. If someone wants to attend the Toyota rally, it sounds like all he has to do is load the Toyota with a cooler, wife, kids, dog, etc. and go. If you want to race in the Catalina Nationals, you have to de-rig your boat, pull it out of the lake, load it on the trailer, take it home, prep the bottom and keel, so that it's ready to race, arrange for crew to attend and help you sail the boat, haul it hundreds of miles, launch it, rig it, race-tune it, practice, race it, and then after the racing is done, take it down, load it up, and haul it home, and then launch and rig it again the next weekend at your home lake.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Steve, I certainly agree the effort to get one there is much greater than a car rally. I'm a perfect example of that. I live 50 miles away from the last regatta and I didn't go at all. I just didn't have the time to do what you said, de-rig, haul, rig, race, de-rig, haul, rig, get on mooring. It is definitely an effort. Would I have done it if there was more offered for my family? I think so. But that's me.

Other considerations are that lots of us do not have outboards that would cope with the waters of Lake Erie safely (5 hp). Maybe a smaller lake venue would attract more.

Interesting issues.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2007 : 14:44:28

If someone in the association gets a free meal at Nationals from my dues then that is fine with me. If a group of club members get together at a boat show and hoist a beer that I helped pay for then I say fine with me. Likewise if I enjoy this forum while the racer never uses it then I hope he says "fine with me."

We are an association of people with a shared core interest but with different ways of expressing that interest. Why all the stress about someone getting a meal? Gee whiz, we are talking about chump change here people. If you can afford one of our boats then don't tell me that $15 a year has an impact on you. It doesn't.

This is an association. It is bigger than you or I and our own narrow interests. Be big. For crying out loud there are real problems in this world that deserve consternation. This is NOT one of them.

Board, please feel free to use my dues in any way that benefits association members. My only request is that if they use it to buy beer they must raise a toast to us all.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2007 : 15:01:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 please feel free to use my dues in any way that benefits association members. My only request is that if they use it to buy beer they must raise a toast to us all.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I say every member should get a beer from the association and take it out of Randy's now $1,000.00 yearly dues!

Edited by - on

Steve Meyer
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2007 : 15:09:27

This is one of the best sailing associations available. This association makes sailing your boat more fun, more safe, and more affordable. It is active associations like this that keep the resale value of Catalina's so high. There are other 25' foot pocket cruisers available, but non as popular as a Catalina. It is because we have so much information available for the boat and so much visibility. A large group naturally has many interests and we should be supportive of each other. Please don't let this healthy discussion divide us. Support the outcome whatever side you were on and your sailing investment will be the better for it.

Edited by - on

1981capri
Navigator

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USA
175 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2007 : 15:26:44

Has the association ever considered different levels of membership? Maybe we could have a basic membership that covers the website and the Mainsheet, then offer optional levels like Cruisers and Racers for people who want to be more active and are willing to contribute more, maybe a Benefactor category for people who feel rich and generous and a corporate sponsor category too.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2007 : 15:33:39

First, thanks a million to you, Kevin, for your assistance when I joined the Association last fall and helping me get a fleet started here. I'm dismayed to read that you are resigning. Thanks also to Frank, DaveB and DaveH, and others, for your untiring help with all my questions. Guys, this forum is well worth the annual dues of $22. I'd even pay $25, if it got to that. And I'm already getting the Mainsheet through my C-22 dues, now $27.50 per year. Now here's the BUT: I don't have a trailer or race my C-25, at least not yet, and I bet that the majority of C-25 owners are in a similar situation. If they race at all it's in local club races. How many raced in the Nationals? Less than 10? If that's the case, then each attendee should pay their own way, 100%, as I'm led to believe they are now doing. The Association should not be picking up any of that tab. Nor should it pay to send any members or officers to a big boat show. We're not selling boats, Catalina Yachts is, and they should be underwriting any boat show expenses to promote the ownership of their boats, including participating in the Association.
We should concentrate on promoting membership in the Association and interest in this forum through the several Catalina websites and the fleet structure. Grass roots effort at the fleet level is how we grow, and I'll support a dues increase for that.
PS, none of the C-25 owners on our lake race their boats!

Edited by - dmpilc on 12/12/2007 15:34:36

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2007 : 07:38:26

Based on past regattas, it appears that the interest in racing the various 25' Catalinas is increasing, not declining. The turnout of boats at each National Regatta is about the same as it has always been through the years, but the number of members who attend without bringing their boats, and who participate by crewing on other peoples' boats, has increased. The following is a list of members who attended two years ago, at the Kansas event:

"We had over 30 sailors on the water, one boat from Indiana, (Bob Mienert), one from Texas, (Derek Crawford), and one boat from Oklahoma, (Steve Meyer), but sailors came from Florida, (Jerry Mulvihill), Connecticut, (Done Peet), Oklahoma, (JB Manley, Matt Meyer, Jack Moore, Hugh Baser, Ken West), Louisiana, (Mike Murphy, Buck Blum, Tim Voyt), Texas, (Judy Ayers and JD Dukes), and Oregon, (Gary Bruner, Terry Annis, Steve Elred). Several of the out of towners brought family; sailboat racing is a wonderful family experience. There were many sailors from Ninnescah Yacht Club as well."

The number of boats actually participating in our National Regatta will probably remain about the same, because of the effort required to bring them, but, our National Regatta offers our members from all over the country an opportunity to participate in a national sailing event and to see our best boats and best crews performing at their best. If this Association doesn't provide that opportunity for its members, where else would we find it? How many of us would have a chance to skipper or crew in a national regatta elsewhere, if not here? If you're lucky enough to see Catalina racers like Bill Meinert, Derek Crawford, Duane Wolff, Jack Metzel, Mike Humphpies and others, you'll see racers who would be competitive racing in almost any class of boat, anywhere.

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2007 : 10:13:08

I'm late chiming in here due to work constraints, but I'd like to toss in a couple of cents worth:

I think a lot of people have taken the board's discussions about dues WAAAY out of context and read too much into it. Having been personally involved in each board meeting since I got volunteered, I can say that the way *I* read the discussions is that we're considering OPTIONS to make the assn financially more viable.

Does that mean a dues increase? That's one option. Does that mean making the MAINSHEET a discretionary choice? That another option. Does that mean taking a close look at our expenditures and determining what is of value and what is not? Of course.

Does that mean that there will be a dues increase? No. We're discussing options here, people. There might be a member or two who's outright FOR an increase, but that's why the board is made up of multiple members (Volunteers, if you dont like 'em - take their place next year!). Multiple people with multiple opinions and input. I would rather have seen Kevin stick around as Commodore and fight the dues increase because that's his opinion, than bowing out because he thinks he's creating a conflict among the board. I hope that wasnt the primary reason for his resignation, and that it just happpened to get first entry on his list of reasons (and obviously cause the most stink here).

Personally, I'm against an increase unless it's warranted. But if there's a need for it, I'll support it. We (the board) are still in the mode of determining where the assn currently stands.

Some people here are upset that if there's a dues increase it will go to the racers. I haven't seen this at all, and I'm a racer. There was some discussion about subsidizing a part of the entry fees to any Capri25 that showed up to the Nationals, in order to draw more CP25's to the line. That was dropped. There is currently some research going into purchasing a perpetual trophy for the CP25 "Nationals". Will that happen? Maybe. My understanding is that Catalina donated the C25 and C250 trophies. Good on 'em! Should they donate the trophy for a boat model they never manufactured? If they're made of $ sure, but in today's market? Probably not. Even if the assn does purchase the trophy, we're talking about a very miniscule cost compared to the rest of the expenditures.

Others are upset that the money might go toward the cruisers. In my book if you aint racing, you're cruising! Of course, even then if two boats are sailing merrily along in the same general direction, you're racing.

I used to be a cruiser (still do once/year in the Abaco's on a fat tennis-court of a boat), but I get more out of racing. That's why I gave up my Capri26 - and I still hear constantly about the lack of enclosed head. But does that mean I shouldnt support cruising? Of course not, and I dont grudge 'em anything. The C25/250 is a cruising boat. Should assn $ go to support 'em? Sure. But in what way?

Seems to me that sponsoring a small part of a get-together is a nice idea. Should we subsidize the event? Hell no! But before you get bent outta shape about the assn buying a couple of drinks or a hamburger for some members who are fortunate enough to attend an event in their local area, think about the relative costs. We're not talking about sending the board members to the show or providing an expense account here! From what I've heard happened in the past when the assn was flush with $, those costs were pretty small. Do these warrant a dues increase? Probably not. But they're not breaking the assn, either. I say if they club's flush, drop a few $ on a cold one or two. If we're tapped, pass on it. But the "socials" are not driving the discussions about dues, they're part of the discussions about what the assn should be doing with the assn $.

All of the above (what most people seem to be whining about when they hear "dues increase") are relatively low cost items when you look at what it really takes to run this assn. Just the MAINSHEET mag is over 60% of your dues $ folks! If I recall correctly, the next biggest chunk is the maintenance of membership info with Catalina.

The board is not proposing a dues increase. The board is currently considering options available to sustain the assn for the next generation of people crazy enough to get involved. Some of those options even involve a reduction of dues. Options are just that - options. Decisions have not been made, and wont be made lightly when they are.

Have an opinion? Voice it! Become a member (c'mon, $22 is just a decent lunch!). Want to be involved in the decision making? Volunteer for the board! Do you have an idea for something you'd like to see the assn do for you that's not currently being done? Speak up!

Apologies for the rant, I'm just a lowly Measurer of an adopted boat model and dont pretend to speak for the assn or even the board. The above is just my opinion and barely worth what you paid for it (none of any members' $22 went to anything for this post other than the forum support, which is available to the general public anyway).

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2007 : 11:30:12

Yeah, what Jim said!!! Thanks, Jim, for a re-statement of "what is" clearing up "what's assumed"

An interesting lesson in communications has taken place here. Many will remember that game of "Quarters" played in college. The story starts out as a simple statement then transforms itself into something completely new. In some cases, it can be damaging.

I read in the earliest posts on this thread that there are financial discussions taking place including changes in dues. Somehow that was morphed into a dues increase with sinister intentions.

I'm looking forward to reading the minutes in the member's area.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2007 : 11:39:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by SailCO26
 Should (Catalina) donate the trophy for a boat model they never manufactured?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Which one is that? I thought Capri was Frank Butler's "sporty" brand from the get-go. No?

Edited by - on

1981capri
Navigator

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USA
175 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2007 : 12:17:49

As another "redheaded step child"

of the association, I am extremely happy to have found a place where I can get information that is specific to my Capri 25, that I needed, and also lots of great general information about sailing and boat maintenance, not to mention the witty and humorous remarks that are so entertaining. Seemed like joining and paying the dues was a very small price to pay to support that.

Edited by - 1981capri on 12/13/2007 12:26:51

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.