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Cockpit Seat Woes

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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Initially Posted - 01/24/2008 : 20:17:17

I have an area from the front of the starboard cockpit seat back about 18" on the top surface(about where you would step if going forward) that has some fine spider cracks in it and it feels like it's either starting to rot or is delaminating. I did a quick check from the inside pushing up from the inside above the quarter-berth and didn't feel any flexing. I didn't explore it very carefully so may have missed something.

If you look closely you can just amke out the spider cracks in the photo below.

Anyone have a suggestion on how I can determine what's going on with this area without cutting it open? I don't have any experience working with fiberglass and gelcoat and hate to learn on such a high visibility area.

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GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 01/25/2008 14:23:37

John Russell
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Response Posted - 01/24/2008 : 20:38:54

Take a plastic hammer and "sound" it-- i.e. tap around on the surface with the hammer. If the core is wet or delaminating, you'll hear a duller sound than the surrounding areas.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 01/24/2008 : 20:54:50

It's duller without a doubt. The glass flexes when you push or step on it. I just can't tell if it's rotting underneath or delaminating.

It's hard to tell in the photo but the spider cracks are very fine and don't appear to be very deep. Any water that gets on this part of the seat appears to be sitting for awhile because I see water marks on the top of the seat after it rains which leads me to believe that it's either evaporating without leaking in or is seeping in very slowly.

Edited by - GaryB on 01/25/2008 14:23:19

John Russell
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Response Posted - 01/24/2008 : 21:52:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 .... I just can't tell if it's rotting underneath or delaminating.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Fiberglass doesn't rot. Glass fibers can't absorb water So, the real question is: is that area cored or not. If it's cored, then you may well have water damage (read: rot)to the core. If not, you have delamination.

I think it's cored. There are techniques for injecting some chemistry under the glass into the core that dries it and firms it up but, somebody else here will have to describe that. If that doesn't work, you peel the top layer and replace the core then replace the peel. Or, you live with it while trying to limit further damage by sealing the gelcoat.

Edited by - on

tinob
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Response Posted - 01/25/2008 : 12:06:19

Gary you can try drilling a small hole under the place in question, just enough to let any water out; no water , no problem; water, time to determine step #2

Val on the hard DAGNABIT,#3936, PATCHOGUE, N.Y.

hope there's no water.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 01/25/2008 : 12:51:14

I'm reasonably sure that area is cored with plywood, and if moisture gets through the glass, the plywood will delaminate and get soft. I've heard of two ways to repair it. One way is to drill holes in the gel coat and inject something like "Git Rot" into it. It will fill the space, harden, and reinforce the wood fibers, even if they're deteriorated.

The other way is to replace the plywood, and I think the recommended way is to access it from the berth under the cockpit. That way, you don't disturb the gel coat from the outside, where it's most visible. You cut the inner liner, and save the piece, so you can glass it back in place after you replace the plywood.

The problem is that, even if you repair it, you might not have plugged the space where the water is getting in. It might be getting through spider cracks in the gel coat, and the only way I know of to seal that is to paint the cockpit with a two part paint after the repair is done.

Meanwhile, you can probably slow it's deterioration alot by keeping the boat covered in a way that keeps moisture off that part of the seat. A tarp over the boom would probably do it, and would be quick and easy to put on when you leave the boat.

Before starting the job, I'd suggest you call Catalina's customer support people and tell them your plan. They can tell you whether there's a better way to do it.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 01/25/2008 12:57:40

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 01/25/2008 : 13:53:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 .... I just can't tell if it's rotting underneath or delaminating.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Fiberglass doesn't rot. Glass fibers can't absorb water So, the real question is: is that area cored or not. If it's cored, then you may well have water damage (read: rot)to the core. If not, you have delamination.

I think it's cored. There are techniques for injecting some chemistry under the glass into the core that dries it and firms it up but, somebody else here will have to describe that. If that doesn't work, you peel the top layer and replace the core then replace the peel. Or, you live with it while trying to limit further damage by sealing the gelcoat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

John,

I should have worded my sentence better. I was aware that fiberglass doesn't rot. I agree with you, I believe that area is cored.

I've heard of some stuff called CPES that works the way you mentioned. I may go that route if there is rot.

Thank you for your input!

Edited by - GaryB on 01/25/2008 14:23:00

GaryB
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Response Posted - 01/25/2008 : 13:57:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tinob
 Gary you can try drilling a small hole under the place in question, just enough to let any water out; no water , no problem; water, time to determine step #2

Val on the hard DAGNABIT,#3936, PATCHOGUE, N.Y.

hope there's no water.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Val,

I hadn't though of drilling a hole from underneath. I'll give that a try this weekend. It's been raining all week long. It should be good and wet by now.

Edited by - GaryB on 01/25/2008 14:22:44

GaryB
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Response Posted - 01/25/2008 : 14:07:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 I'm reasonably sure that area is cored with plywood, and if moisture gets through the glass, the plywood will delaminate and get soft. I've heard of two ways to repair it. One way is to drill holes in the gel coat and inject something like "Git Rot" into it. It will fill the space, harden, and reinforce the wood fibers, even if they're deteriorated.

The other way is to replace the plywood, and I think the recommended way is to access it from the berth under the cockpit. That way, you don't disturb the gel coat from the outside, where it's most visible. You cut the inner liner, and save the piece, so you can glass it back in place after you replace the plywood.

The problem is that, even if you repair it, you might not have plugged the space where the water is getting in. It might be getting through spider cracks in the gel coat, and the only way I know of to seal that is to paint the cockpit with a two part paint after the repair is done.

Meanwhile, you can probably slow it's deterioration alot by keeping the boat covered in a way that keeps moisture off that part of the seat. A tarp over the boom would probably do it, and would be quick and easy to put on when you leave the boat.

Before starting the job, I'd suggest you call Catalina's customer support people and tell them your plan. They can tell you whether there's a better way to do it.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Steve,

I used Git Rot on the transom of my SeaRay about 15 years ago. It definitely stopped the rot. I never had to do anything to it again. I believe the CPES stuff I mentioned in my response to John is actually thinner and might flow better than the Git Rot. I'll have to research both more closely. I also call catalina and see what they have to suggest.

I agree that it might be better to access the core from the inside but I really don't want to do major surgery if at all possible. I would never get it to look right again and I'm too tight to pay someone else to do it.

I keep the Bimini up over the cockpit but that probably doesn't stop much of the rain. I've been looking at Larry's cover and may get something like that made to cover most of the boat.

Thank you for your input!

Edited by - GaryB on 01/25/2008 14:22:27

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 01/25/2008 : 17:38:04

Gary,

I would explore all methods that may stop or significantly slow the deterioration before making any major cuts. As you say, you probably will not get it to look right. I know that there are some jobs I am capable of and then there are others that I probably would seek professional assistance. But that is easier said than done and could be at significant cost. I know that there have been discussions on this subject before on this Forum - believe it had to do more with the deck area but perhaps some of the same methods could be used trying to stabilize the interior areas.

Edited by - on

JohnP
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Response Posted - 01/27/2008 : 14:55:20

Gary,
What they said. Gelcoat is polyester based and has its own characteristics, some of which can be compatible with epoxy fiberglass.

If you are considering doing your own exoxy fiberglass work, you might not know that the West System epoxy components from West Marine works well. There are detailed user's guides that are important since there is a lot to learn about this technology.

For example, the 29 page free West System "User Manual" just scratches the surface

of how to use their products, but the 86 page "Fiberglass Boat Repair & Maintenance" booklet goes into great detail about each part of the boat. I think it cost $5.

I followed the instructions exactly and found that I could rebuild the center third of my rudder (pintle-cracks and edge cracks) for much less than the cost of a new one. I know I can trust its strength now, too.

Good luck with your cockpit seat work.

Edited by - JohnP on 01/27/2008 18:27:06

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 01/27/2008 : 15:34:25

Gary... I tend to doubt the spider cracks are the source of any water getting into that core (if there is moisture). Most of our 20-30-year-old C-25s have cracks in the gelcoat, and many have them right there--I recall mine did. I've been told it's usually because the gelcoat was a bit too thick in that concave curve, and shrank more there.

I like the idea of drilling a small hole up from the inside, seeing if you can detect water, and probing with a piece of wire to see if the core is really soft. If so, then penetrating expoxy will at least make it better.

But there's another issue: Where's the water coming from (if not the cracks)? I'd be suspicious of the coaming compartments, the winches, the cleats, and the teak trim around the companionway. Let's see... puzzle, puzzle, puzzle....

How 'bout pouring a little alcohol on just one of the suspected areas, giving it a little time, and then seeing if you can smell alcohol around the hole inside? Anybody got another idea?

Best of luck...

Edited by - on

glivs
Admiral

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USA
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Response Posted - 01/28/2008 : 06:45:32

Gary,
I've read that spider cracks where the seat meets the cockpit can occur due to flexing if the boat is not supported well on its trailer or cradle, particularly if subject to vibration (road travel) or allowed to sit for an extended period (years). I don't know if that applies to your situation but fwiw.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 01/28/2008 : 14:40:41

Gary, my previous C22 had delam in the bow area. No rot, just some delam. I drilled small holes from beneath and used an oil gun to pump penetrating epoxy up in the the delam area. Then placed sand bags on it for 24 hours. It made the deck solid again with no damage to the exerior. Then I just used Marine-Tex to seal the holes I pumped the expoxy through. The trickiest part is to drill through the interior glass and then the core but stop before the upper glass. Just take your time. I used 1/2" holes and then plugged them with a rubber cork that was drilled to allow the oil gun tip through. Needless to say, put down some plastic sheets so drips don't make a mess.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 01/28/2008 : 21:58:41

Well I wasn't able to get down to the boat this weekend to trouble shoot my problem as I'd hoped to do! Too cold (45 degrees)! :):):)

JohnP - I've heard of the West System and will look into getting the booklet and more information from them.

Dave - I like your idea! If it doesn't leak into the core I can always use a straw to suck it up. I wouldn't want to waste any good alcohol.

Gerry - Unfortunately I don't have a trailer and the boat has lived most of it's life in the water. Thank you for the suggestion!

Randy - I was thinking along the same lines you used on your C22.

How think is that penetrating epoxy? What brand did you use?

I was thinking of drilling something like a 1/8" - 1/4" hole to minimize the size of the holes and then use a syringe to inject it into the core. If the syringe is too small maybe I could use the oil gun you referred to but get one with a rubber tipped nozzle and just hold the tip tight against the hole. I could then quickly remove it and put some tape over the hole until it dries.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 01/28/2008 : 22:42:18

Penetrating epoxy is much thinner than regular... A standard epoxy syringe should work well and allow for very small holes. I think it's recommended that you give the wood some time to dry after drilling and before injecting.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 01/28/2008 : 22:49:50

Dave,

I've heard the same thing. Thanks for the information.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 01/29/2008 : 14:52:24

Gary, a syringe wont deliver much epoxy. Maybe a turkey baster. I used the grease gun because I needed to fix an area about 2' by 2' and shot two guns worth up there. Plus you need some pressure to force the upper glass away from the core so you can get the expoxy up there. I don't think a syringe will do that for you. I used a saw to cut the tip of the grease gun at an angle so the tip pushed up the upper glass and the epoxy came out the side of the tip.

I used the CPES penetrating epoxy from www.rotdoctor.com but suspect any penetrating epoxy would do fine.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 01/29/2008 14:53:40

GaryB
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Response Posted - 01/29/2008 : 20:11:36

Randy,

Did you use an oil gun or a grease gun?

It sounds like you drilled the 1/2 inch hole from the bottom all the way up to the bottom surface of the seat and then pushed the gun up against the bottom surface of the seat and pumped in the CPES, correct?

How far apart did you drill your holes and how did you keep the CPES in the holes until it cured?

CPES is what I was planning on using. I read about a guy who used CPES to fix a large area on the deck of his C22. He said it worked really well.

Edited by - GaryB on 01/29/2008 20:12:56

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 01/29/2008 : 21:14:41

Gary, must have been a greese gun that I got at an auto parts store. But it did not have a fitting on the nozzle, it has a pointy end. I tossed it when done.

I drilled five holes, one in the center and one at each corner. I had five rubber corks. I started pumping into the highest corner and pumped until epoxy came out another hole. Then I corked the first hole and went to the next highest, etc. In the end all of the holes were corked shut and stayed so until the stuff was dry. Your situation is flat so I would just start at one corner and then move on. Finish with the center hole. If your area is very small then even two holes may suffice, diagonal to each other. Just pump that stuff up there. The trick is to get a bunch of the resin in there and then weight it down.

You are right. The tip of the gun pushed up against the upper glass and the resin shot out the side of the tip because I had cut the tip off at an angle.

You will make a mess. Put down a tarp and wear old clothes.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 01/29/2008 : 22:52:11

Randy,

Was your gun like this http://www2.northerntool.com/product/137366.htm or maybe like one of these http://www.thomasregister.com/olc/73246506/oilgun.htm ?

I appreciate everyone's suggestions. I'll let you know how it goes.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 01/30/2008 : 10:28:28

The Northern Tools kind. Need one that accepts bulk loading. Mine had a few fittings including a pointed one. If you cant find that then I think going with no end fitting will work but still cut the end off at an angle so that the tip hits the outer glass the epoxy shoots out the side into the void area between the core and the outer glass.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 01/30/2008 : 11:34:24

Thank you Randy! I'm a regular at Northen Tool near my office. I'll check it out!

BTW, I noticed on the Rot Doctor site they have reusable tubes that can be put in a caulk gun. I might try these out also. http://www.rotdoctor.com/products/accessories.html#tube

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
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Response Posted - 01/30/2008 : 13:45:05

I used thickened epoxy and a large syringe to fix a delaminated area of my hobie 17.

Having tape in place ready to close off the fills was a big help, I would start on the perimeter and work in.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 01/30/2008 13:46:15

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 01/30/2008 : 17:41:13

Gary, the reusable tubes look interesting. When I was done I just tossed the gun out. Cleaning out the epoxy would have been too big a hassle.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 02/02/2008 : 18:41:00

Well I may have some good news on my seat! I was down at the boat for a very short time today and I leaned on the top of the seat in question and noticed that if I pushed down with a moderate force the fiberglass would flex as I earlier described but would then hit what felt like solid wood underneath. I pushed hard a couple of times to confirm and I didn't feel any sponginess when the fiberglass contacted the wood underneath so I'm thinking that the fiberglass has just delaminated from the wood. It felt like there was maybe 1/4" - 3/8" of deflection before contact with the wood below.

I didn't have time to drill any holes from the inside to confirm that the wood was dry but for now I'm breathing a little easier.

Edited by - GaryB on 02/02/2008 18:45:00

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