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outboard helm setup

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 09:27:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">like trying to steer a beach ball<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Power boats are a little like that--I'm honing a whole new set of skills!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/09/2008 09:29:20

quilombo
Captain

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USA
301 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 11:57:53

I have to say ,,,,holy crap!!!!! I was going to use another word, but, you know.
I do plan on getting a smaller wheel, this one is kinda big, but as I mentioned its only for getting into my marina and by the way I didnt ad any addtional holes the hole where the wheel is , was there for a rather large compass and well, Iand I do have a fold up rudder,, Im telling you , its real convenient,,,,go easy on me guys,,, its supposed to be fun,,,,lol

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 12:09:25

Know what would be fun? (At least fun to watch...) Refit the steering column to take a winch handle. Then you wouldn't have the wheel in the way, and you could use the winch like one of the power-knobs folks mount on the steering wheels of RV's.

At least that way you could get all these guys to give you a break by pointing out its a steering winch, and therefore is proper on a sailboat.

Quil, you have done a couple things on your boat that i wouldn't, but its YOUR boat, as long as it isn't unsafe, and it brings you happiness, thats what sailing is all about. At least thats my take on it. Whenever you go to sell, you should consider removing th ewheel and putting something else there. Until then its whatever floats your boat!

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 12:48:55

If, after you've sailed with your modification for a while and find that you don't like what you've done, you can remove the wheel and put any number of things in the hole. Even a plain ol' piece of teak would look okay.
The throttle-gear controller might be the item I would consider, but I would not put it where you did.

I think what most responders are getting at, is that your boat should be able to get into your slip without any mods and that your mod is not necesary because it looks like it will impair your ability to sail and generally operate your boat. But you are the best judge of that and my hat's off to you for following your own path.

I don't know what your slip is like but I can tell you that you would get many many responses on how to approach and dock your boat if you were to detail your conditions.
I had a slip in an old marina that was built for powerboats, it was in a canal between two lakes and there was a fierce current that ran through there, along with high winds. This marina was full of houseboats and powerboats and the slip was 8'3" wide and very shallow. I docked there for one and half seasons and I learned about how to make a sailboat go sideways - which is partly why I am such a huge fan of tillers. The only thing that I wished I had differently then, was an inside the cockpit OB controller similar to the one you installed. Now I'm glad I don't have one because I like the simple openness of my cockpit.
With a little practice, you can make a C25 with a tiller maneuver very responsively and perhaps that fact was missed when you were asking questions about this mod in past posts. One of the great things about this forum is that these people are genuinely offering their qualified and semi-qualified opinions with the best of intentions. Perhaps what you needed to hear a couple months ago was big block letters shouting out 'Dont do it'.
A recurring response on this forum is, 'sail it for a year before you make modifications'
Again, I am impressed that you have the cojones to do your own thing, I hope you will keep us updated on how this mod works for you.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 13:05:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stampeder
 ...Perhaps what you needed to hear a couple months ago was big block letters shouting out 'Dont do it'. A recurring response on this forum is, 'sail it for a year before you make modifications'
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">We did...several months ago. Our work here is done.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 14:12:47

I'm still wondering about the rudder that's as deep as the lowered swing keel...Did it come off an old AC boat?

Edited by - on

quilombo
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USA
301 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 16:07:59

you guys are hardcore,,,lol I know that this is not a conventional setup , but as some of you have said, It can always be removed, I went to alot of trouble not to do anything that would compromise the boat, in fact, I think I made it more desireable , well at least in my area, as I said, if you want to treat it like a sailboat with out any power at all, all you have to do is rasie the motor, (and by the way, I dont think Ive seen a sailboat here on the east coast without an outboard, ) and pull the wheel off,(by the way , the wheel has a quick disconnect feature) and your back to what it was before. the controls are not in the way and there are just two small sheet metal size holes holding that on,
while the engine is not in use, you push the throttle handle foward and its way , out of the way
Im not in any rush to practice sailing around in a marina where there are boats worth thousands of dollars,
I plan on taking a few sailing courses and will enjoy the sailing out on the open water, not in the marina, in time I am sure Im going to want to try putting my sailboat in a slip without the aid of an engine, but the question I keep coming back with , is why
so with that said, Im happy my posting has risen eyebrows etc, but Ill let you guys know how it fairs, as I will be sailing this weekend, providing theres wind, and I think there will be

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 16:20:17

I know we've beaten this horse to death and back but...........

It seems like you're expecting your sailboat to behave like a powerboat. It won't no matter what kind of steering you attach. None of us sail into our slips unless our motors fail AND the conditions are right. (That's a skill worth learning, BTW)

I hope you know that when you reverse your motor to stop the boat, IT WON'T, at least not nearly like a powerboat will. And, your motor won't provide any steerage in neutral so, you'll have to come in under power with enough speed to maintain steerage. That's when you run the risk to those mega-yachts you're worried about.

I agree with Mike, Chris and others that you are to be applauded for following your own drummer. Good luck.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 16:44:07

I tried to add this earlier but the connection timed out:

Unless your boat is disabled (motor dies) DO NOT sail into your slip. You don't have enough control of the boatspeed to do it. Especially if you have to navigate aisles and currents. In our club you would be removed from the membership for doing that.

As pointed out above, you should be able to do it, so if you want to try, come in on idle and do it when no one else is in the marina. Have crew ready to run (reverse) the engine while you are fighting the sails.

Last year one of our guys lost his engine, and his slip was very accessible. It took him the better part of the day to hit the sweet spot where his speed was high enough to make his slip and slow enough not to damage his boat or anyone else's.

The big threat with coming in under sail is that you cannot "put it in reverse" if someone crosses your path while navigating the marina. You will hit with speed.

I would be very interested to see the googlemap of where your boat is. It sounds like a unique marina with the minimal draft and everything you have described.

Edited by - Prospector on 05/09/2008 16:45:26

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 16:59:06

Actually, a sailboat does have a reverse gear... The simplest case is pointing straight to windward, luffing--just push the boom out to the side opposite the dock, and it will slow to a stop and slide slightly toward the dock. With enough room, you can even make it back up, which is a technique for getting "out of irons". Try it away from a dock some time to get an idea of how it works in a particular wind-speed...

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 17:24:22

I am aware of that Dave, and have used the technique in dinghy's many times, but I can't imagine coming in hot to the dock, and having someone pull in front of me without being able to put the engine in reverse to at least slow the boat a little.

In the marina I learned to sail in it would have been impossible to turn the boat in irons without causing damage to something. Tight parking lot, so to speak, and there some of the powercruisers really weren't aware of the rules of the road, or how to handle their boats. If I have to gybe or pull into the wind, I can't guarantee anyone a clear path around me.

As i said earlier, I do think its important to know how to get your boat to dock under sail alone, but I feel that its a dangerous thing to do unless you absolutely must.

It makes more sense to me to drop the hook just outside the marina and get a tow.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 18:11:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 Actually, a sailboat does have a reverse gear... The simplest case is pointing straight to windward, luffing--just push the boom out to the side opposite the dock, and it will slow to a stop and slide slightly toward the dock. With enough room, you can even make it back up, which is a technique for getting "out of irons". Try it away from a dock some time to get an idea of how it works in a particular wind-speed...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's exactly the problem, Dave. The proper method for landing the boat under sail is to ALWAYS approach a dock by turning so that you're sailing into the wind. Unfortunately, the way marinas are designed, that becomes a matter of chance. I considered going out the other day even with my motor problems but, entering my slip would have been from a broad reach turning to dead downwind. Not a safe way to dock a boat. If I HAD to return under sail in those conditions I'd probably leave the boat at our gas dock which allows for maneuvering into the wind in relatively open water. Of course the guy in the Gulfstar across the way from the gas dock might get a tad nervous.

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stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 20:02:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">and by the way, I dont think Ive seen a sailboat here on the east coast without an outboard,<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

AND

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">in time I am sure Im going to want to try putting my sailboat in a slip without the aid of an engine, but the question I keep coming back with , is why<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, every sailboat has an outboard or an inboard - we use them when we dock...except for those times when conditions are perfect, or if you are an old salt or we absolutely have to dock but can't start the OB.
An outboard is used at the start and at the end of most every sail outing.
Mr Bristle, the last word please.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2008 : 20:39:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stampeder
Yes, every sailboat has an outboard or an inboard - we use them when we dock...except for those times when conditions are perfect, or if you are an old salt or we absolutely have to dock but can't start the OB.
An outboard is used at the start and at the end of most every sail outing.
Mr Bristle, the last word please.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Actually, the sailing school where I first sailed a C25 only had boats without motors and instructors that scoffed at anyone that would use one on a sailboat. "We don't need no stinkin' motors, we got sails!" would be heard often. It's where I learned the backwinding technique that Dave spoke of. It was how we got away from the docks.

Fortunately, those instructors are nowhere near my boat.

Now, Mr. Bristle, the last word if you please.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2008 : 07:32:59

Coming into the slip under power

When coming into my marina under power, I put the engine in nuetral while still in the main channel, about a 100' to 150' feet away from my slip, with the boat moving somewhere around 1-1 1/2 kts. I then do two starboard 90 degree turns and glide slowly into my slip. If I'm low on speed or I need to kick the stern one way or another, I scull the rudder. To stop, I simply place my spring line on my winch.

Coming into the slip under sail

When coming into my marina under sail, I roll in my headsail while still in the main channel, about a 100' to 150' feet away from my slip, with the boat moving somewhere around 1-1 1/2 kts. I then do two starboard 90 degree turns and glide slowly into my slip. If I'm low on speed or I need to kick the stern one way or another, I scull the rudder. To stop, I simply place my spring line on my winch.

Edited by - dlucier on 05/10/2008 07:33:56

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2008 : 09:46:46

Coming into the slip under power

We have pretty much a straight shot so at about 100' out I am at about 1 1/2 knots. Our slip is the opposite of that desired, the wind is almost always on our stern. So, about 50' out I put the OB in reverse at idle. We still move forward but slowly. As we reach the slip I blip the throttle (still in reverse) and the Admiral attaches the spring line. The OB then goes in neutral.

Coming into the slip under sail

As noted, the wind is at our backs so when we sail into the slip we yell HELP!! PUT FENDERS ON THE DOCK!! ALL PERSONNEL TO SLIP D12!!! MAYDAY!! MAYDAY!!

Seriously, if the outboard was broken I would dock somewhere else.

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2008 : 10:07:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">To stop, I simply place my spring line on my winch.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Don, I read somewhere that using spring lines on a winch (especially to stop the boat)is not good for the winch bearings. I also have a line at my dock that I use as a brake, but I grab it by hand and pay it out slowly to stop the boat, then I drop it on the stern cleat. Of course The boat is usually moving well below one knot at this point.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2008 : 10:32:07

Thread Jack'n buncha *%##@ers

My point, and I do have one...sounds to my legal ear, that Q may have done this mod because he didn't want to sail into his slip.

Most marinas that I'm familiar with do not allow sails up inbound except in the case of necesity, and in which case there is usually a designated dock.

I'm on a mooring ball and often sail up to it, but I generally do so with my OB running in case of that utmost in rarities; overshooting the mark. (it's always someone else's fault if I do

)

I sailed a lot on windsurfers and hobie cats so when I got this sailboat, it was a wonderful revelation to be able to approach under power.

When Q tackles sailing the same way he takes on other projects, he's probably going to be the best sailor here. (okay, second best)

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2008 : 12:14:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stampeder Mr Bristle, the last word please.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"><blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell Now, Mr. Bristle, the last word if you please.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Ummm... Excactly what are you trying to say?

(There it is.)

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/10/2008 : 14:35:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Ummm... Excactly what are you trying to say?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Because of your diplomatic wisdom, and knowing when enough is enough.

unlike some of us who really expect that beating a dead horse is going to result in a gallop.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2008 : 14:44:58

See, you didn't need me... (Besides, I'd be out on my boat if I weren't away from home.)

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2008 : 17:37:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stampeder
 My point, and I do have one...sounds to my legal ear, that Q may have done this mod because he didn't want to sail into his slip.

Most marinas that I'm familiar with do not allow sails up inbound except in the case of necesity, and in which case there is usually a designated dock.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm not suggesting he sail into his slip. My marina is one that specifically bans manuevering under sail and I've only done it a few times myself out of necessity. My point earlier was, the technique I use when coming in to the slip is the same whether I'm under sail or power. It turns coming in to the slip under sail to a non-event.

Edited by - dlucier on 05/10/2008 17:37:59

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2008 : 18:05:52

Guess I'll weigh in here. While I don't particularly care for Guglielmo's steering setup, I think it's a good solution for him, simply because it works for him, and he put it together on his own. I wouldn't want the wheel or controls where they are, but that's my opinion and we all know what that's worth. However, given what the conditions in my marina are like, having a similar setup might not be such a bad thing. I'm hoping the Power Tiller I ordered will take care of all those problems with the exception of the hard link which I'll solve myself once I've got everything else in place.

To get to my slip in my marina, I have to motor up a ship channel probably close to a mile, it could probably be sailed, but I wouldn't even consider it, you could easily get wiped out by a giant barge coming downstream, and they would never have even seen you. Then I have to make a 90 degree turn across the river current to the left followed by an almost immediate 90 again to the left, and then I'm in the fairway, with the current pushing me from behind. At this point, I'm behind the boat houses blocked from any wind except straight up or down river, neither one would be helpful. I have to traverse the entire length of the marina to get to my slip, and make a final 90 to the right across the current that's setting me into my neighbor. I don't know how I'd go about sailing to my slip, or if it can even be done. Maybe a better sailor could do it, but I wouldn't even attempt it. That's why I have the maximum allowable towing rider on my boat insurance. I've never had to use it, and hope I never do, but that's probably the only way I could get back in in the event of engine failure. I am working on a plan to make my 4 hp dinghy engine hang off the boarding ladder as a "kicker" in an emergency.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/11/2008 : 11:13:01

I'd like to hear Guglielmo's description of his marina and surrounding conditons.
Perhaps the collective wisdom here could lend some assistance with the best way to get a C25 into his slip.

Edited by - on

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