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reefing main for weather helm

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redeye
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Initially Posted - 05/19/2008 : 10:42:45

I'm using a new mainsail and the original rudder. Can't wait to afford a new one right now. My Catalina points poorly and has a weather helm. The new mainsail helped a lot but the weather helm is not excessive, just not as comfortable as it could be. We reef the main with anything over 15 and it balances quite well. We sail with a tight main and lots of heel so some of it is from our tight main. It also sails well with just the jib, just no pointing. The bottom is a garden right now so the pointing is also from the bad bottom.

The previous owner had the mast replaced twice after storms and whoever put on the mast did not set it up properly. I've attempted to tighten the midstays forward and top back to get some bend, but not much and the leech on the main is still closed.

I don't have an adjustable backstay. I'm going to try to find some chainplates for the forestay to let it out some more. I've owned a catalina 30 which was balanced very well and a Southcoast 22 which was quite tender but balanced well also. My 25 turns up so fast you hafta keep you eyes on the road..

All in all the easist way I've found to balance this rig right now has been to simply reef the main. Then the tiller will finally behave.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 10:56:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redeye
 The previous owner had the mast replaced twice after storms and whoever put on the mast did not set it up properly. I've attempted to tighten the midstays forward and top back to get some bend, but not much and the leech on the main is still closed<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I've decided that I'm going to have a professional rigger come out and "tune" my boat. I'll take his work as a lesson so that I can better do it myself. I think this is something that has to be adjusted periodically depending on how you sail. For me, once after launch in the spring is sufficient. As you've no doubt read on this forum, for others, it's done a couple of times per outing. That's too much work for me.

Edited by - John Russell on 05/19/2008 10:57:16

redeye
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Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 11:13:08

My father was out in the Gulf, a night crossing from Appalach to Tampa. He heard something clanking and found the downwind standing rigging flapping loose. The turnbuckle had come unscrewed, as he would have been the next time he came about.

My brother was sailing our Southcoast 22 and I motored up to his aft and i realized I could see the backstay had lost the round wire holding the pin in the shackle on the backstay. The pin was off one side of the shackle. I could not believe it. It was quite hard to convey the message to be very careful and FIX That pin.

Now I open them up ( the turnbuckle covers ) and look at them closely and inspect the standing rigging often.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 11:20:30

How much mast rake do you have?

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 11:42:38

rake the mast forward a few inches to reduce weather helm. My boat (balanced rudder, standard rig) is highly balanced in all winds, just a wee bit of weather helm.

Look at this photo from Crew of Two Around Catalina race in over 20 knots of wind - 135% jib, reefed main. Slight weather helm, yes, but no serious helm pressure.

Rake mast forward 2 inches and retune standard rigging.

Flatten sail in strong winds, tighten halyard, put traveller down, and take up on the outhaul!

Edited by - on

andy
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Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 11:53:47

Ray

I spend a lot of time tuning my rig. The original rudders were unbalanced and produce a lot of weather helm, so what you've got is fairly normal. If you get a balanced rudder, you'll need to retune. My helm feels different depending on which head sail I'm using. You might try raking the mast forward some (keeping it in column with shroud tension). That should reduce your excessive weather helm, but you'll probably still have some due to the unbalanced rudder.
Some weather helm is desirable. What you don't want is lee helm.
You'll need a LEWs guage to measure and balance the shroud tension to keep the mast in column easily. It's fairly easy to eyeball the mast when you have everything tensioned.
The next step after the initial set up is to sail the boat with some load on the mast and see if it stays in column. Keep tweaking the shrouds until it does. Tuning the boat requires adjusting after (or during) test sailing. Getting the proper set up tied at the dock is impossible, unless you're extremely lucky... there are too many variables. Every boat and sail combination is different. It's ok to set up a rig identical to a similar boat as a starting point. It's like tweaking the set up on a race car.
You should start experimenting. You'll get the boat performing better with a lot less effort on the tiller. You shouldn't have to reef in 15kts of air.

Edited by - andy on 05/19/2008 12:25:41

JohnP
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Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 12:27:51

I tuned the mast close to vertical after installing a new anchor light, but the boat now has considerably more weatherhelm than last year.

Larry came over from the Potomac for a sail on the Chesapeake on Saturday, and we both noticed lots of weatherhelm in about 12 kt on either broad or beam reaches with main and 110 jib. Holding our course was more exercise than I like to expend on a beautiful spring morning.

Thanks for helping man the helm, Larry!

I bet the new LED anchor light adds about 0.5 kt to the boat speed, since we were skipping along often at 6.1-6.9 knots.

I'll try raking the mast forward a few inches like Jim said. Should help. I'll be very interested to feel the difference.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 12:33:35

Do you know of anyone in your vicinity who has a balanced rudder? Maybe you could borrow it for an afternoon to see what it'll do.

Edited by - on

andy
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Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 12:37:01

cool... a high performance anchor light.

I gotta get one.

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 12:46:51

As old as my rudder is and given the shell is cracked open, I'm due for a rebuild or a new rudder so I'm trying to save up for one. If I can get some chainplates I'll try to rake the mast forward mid and bend it back some more.

thanks

regards.ray

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 13:00:37

<<< How much mast rake do you have?>>>

Don Lucier asked.

I can't tell very well but looking up the mast it is about 1/4 of the mast width that the halyard line is showing off from straight. Midstays pulling it forward.

I'm try to take a picture if it.

Anyone got any chain plate suggestions for this rig to extend the forestay?

Thanks

regards.ray

Edited by - on

JohnP
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Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 13:10:48

Don,

I didn't know. I rebuilt my rudder about a year ago, and I could have easily added a 27" tall 3" wide triangle to the leading edge. I have learned to love fiberglass and the West System. But that's a project for next winter. For now I think I'll rake the mast.

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OLarryR
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Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 13:45:54

I enjoyed the sail with John P...but it was on Sunday not Saturday !
I did notice the rudder harder to hold than on my '89 but we were really moving. Rain was predicted that day and we were sailing on borrowed time. Then with the wind and rain, I got good use out of a new sailing jacket I bought ! I thought being on John P's boat, I was going to be sort of on vacation and I was looking forward to sitting around, but he put me to work ! Beautiful sailing area just North of the Annapolis Bay Bridge !

Edited by - OLarryR on 05/19/2008 13:47:21

Renzo
Admiral

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Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 14:33:39

You shouldn/t have to extend the chainplates it you are tuned correctly but if you realy need more slack in the forestay why not buy a longer forestay cable?
I'm in agreement with everything said by the others about mast tuning. I would only add that it might be helpful to ues a 50 foot tape measure in adition to a Loos (lews) guage to assist in getting your mast where you want it. Also (And you may already know this)sail trim has alot to do with weather helm. Use of Out-haul, Backstay (I know you said you don't have a backstay adjuster) and Headsail Car position can do alot to reduce excessive weather helm.

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andy
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Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 15:10:10

Ray

From what you describe, your rear lower shrouds aren't long enough? Are you out all the way on the turnbuckles? You don't need to extend the forstay if your going to rake the mast forward (which it sounds like what you need to do). You might need to lengthen the backstay. Definitely don't put a bend in the mast. It's really important to keep it in column. You can lengthen the shrouds by putting longer or an extra shackel below the 'buckles.
If the mast has been replaced, it's quite possible the stock standing rigging might be slightly short so you can't adjust it properly.
I'm sure you can sort it out with out spending a bunch of $$$.

Good point Renzo, I put light equal light tension on the shrouds then measure 'em. Then use the LOOs get the tension I want, all the while eyeballing the mast to keep it as straight as possible.

Ida sailor marine in Boise manufactures a neat balanced rudder. I'm testing one on my boat now. It's approved for racing by the association (I'm told). Made out of HDPE so it appears to be bulletproof. I've been sailing the Catalina balanced rudder so it will be an interesting comparison. I was getting a little lee helm (close hauled) with my mylar genoa. I'm hoping the new blade will fix that. I don't want to rake the mast aft further.

Edited by - andy on 05/19/2008 16:02:17

redeye
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Response Posted - 05/20/2008 : 07:39:52

Andy Anderson said

<< It's really important to keep it (the mast) in column.>>

I moved 2 shackles from the backstay to the forstay and tuned the midstays forward to induce some mast curve, to bend it back at the top.

I did not change the weather helm much.
regards.ray

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andy
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Response Posted - 05/20/2008 : 10:25:32

Ray,
When I say to keep the mast "in column" I mean strait. A curved mast will alter sail shape to something the sail maker didn't have in mind.

If you lengthened the forstay and shortened the backstay, you raked the mast aft....just the opposite of what you want. Raking the mast forward should decrease your weather helm some. Raking it aft makes it worse.

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redeye
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Response Posted - 05/20/2008 : 11:05:29

From these two shackles there was little change either way. The midstays forward was an attempt to bend the mast back and open the leech. I'll try to get some pictures of it for further review.

Thanks

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redeye
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Response Posted - 05/20/2008 : 11:14:50

Oh.. The extensions on the stays were auctually Turnbuckle Extension Toggles. Looks kinda like a heavy duty shackle.

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andy
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Response Posted - 05/20/2008 : 11:37:40

Ray
Got ya'. Sounds like you're after it. It's been my experience that trying different ideas and then testing them out has always been the best. It's very difficult to suggest things in a forum such as this since there are so many variables. Also not knowing the experience level of the person asking for advice adds to the problem.

You'll have to live with the heavy weather helm until you get a new rudder. One of my buddies in our club has the original rudder and comes back from an afternoon of sailing with "popeye forearms". If you're into body building I guess that's ok. Getting a balanced rudder will definitely solve your problem. The other issue is when you have so much tiller pressure, it's almost impossible to fine tune the rig.

regards

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redeye
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Response Posted - 05/20/2008 : 12:01:33

Yep.. I'm trying to get as much weight forward as I can and the mast is already raked forward a lot as you can see from the image. I'm sure the rudder is gonna be great but I was shocked how much the reefing balanced out the boat. I've tried to open up the leech as much as I can and let the main out but this boat turns up like a dropped cat.

The discussion helps a lot, you might get a reply off base but then you hear something you had not thought or heard of. I just learned the name for those Turnbuckle Extension Toggles today. I've been looking at them on my boat for years wondering what those were.

A layline catalog from 1998 listed them.

Edited by - on

andy
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Response Posted - 05/20/2008 : 12:14:28

Ray
You mentioned you have a new main. Is the headsail you're using in good shape? I think what could be happening is you're new main is overpowering your headsail and moving the center of effort aft. That's why reefing it (depowering) gets rid of the weather helm. Did you have as much weather helm with the old main? C25's are headsail driven. That's why my high performance headsail tends to give me a little lee helm in a good wind. (bad). Problem is my other sails don't do that so there's the problem. The good news is we've tuned most of the problem out and I'm thinking the new rudder will fix the rest. I haven't sailed the boat to see if it makes any difference yet though.

Edited by - andy on 05/20/2008 12:32:36

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 05/20/2008 : 13:55:00

Rudder design and balance won't turn lee helm into weather, or get rid of either--it just affects the force at the tiller to control either. Also, FWIW, according to a heavy-duty racer I know, a little weather helm makes a boat faster--lee helm makes it slower.

What I don't understand is why a new main would increase weather helm... It should be much easier to flatten, which depowers it and moves the overall CE forward. Very mysterious.......

Edited by - on

andy
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Response Posted - 05/20/2008 : 15:46:18

Dave,
If my new rudder creates more lift... there is a chance (slight) that it might move the CE forward. The new rudder is narrower with a better foil and about 10" longer. I want to eliminate the slight lee helm we get with the Pentex genoa without raking the mast more. My old stock balanced rudder needed an extensive refurbishing so I didn't buy the new one strictly for the lee helm problem. Having lee helm on any sail combination bugs the hell out of me. It could be that the draft is just too forward on that sail and I can't trim it out. Or I've been sailing the main too flat when the wind pipes. Any suggestions?

A balanced rudder doesn't effect lee/weather helm, I agree. I misstated that...it just takes the pressure off the tiller.

Ray's new main shouldn't cause more weather helm, especially if he flattens it. But, it might be moving the CE aft if his headsail is bagged out. I'm really guessing on that one though.

Excessive tiller pressure to weather is common with the unbalanced C25 stock rudder. It could very well be that Ray doesn't have excessive weather helm at all. If the boat doesn't want to round up, all he's dealing with is the unbalanced rudder.

Edited by - andy on 05/20/2008 15:52:06

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 05/20/2008 : 17:42:39

Andy, do you move the jibsheet cars back when it's piping? That could flatten your jib to balance against your nice, flat main. Think of an imaginary line perpendicular to the forestay, through the jib clew, and down to the rail... In heavy air, moving the cars aft of that line flattens the bottom of the jib and allows the top to twist off. In light air, moving them forward of that line makes the jib full, top to bottom.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/20/2008 17:44:11

andy
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Response Posted - 05/20/2008 : 18:43:52

Yeah Dave... I've got ball bearing Jib cars and we can adjust them on the fly when they're loaded, we flatten the foot, but still have a little you know what. The dacron 110, 135 and 155 have just the right amount of weather helm. Part of the problem is the sail came off an S2. I had the leach re-cut to make it a hair smaller. On most points, the boat flies but close hauled, I'm not happy. I think I can figure it out.. that's what I love about sailing. On some levels it's really challenging to get it just right. You never stop learning. I learned to sail when I was 25 and I just turned 62. My racing partner has forgotten more about sailing than I'll probably ever know. (ex professional racer). But the sport is fun even when you're learning...how many other hobbies are like that? Certainly not golf!!!

Edited by - andy on 05/20/2008 19:01:39

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