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Single Backstay-Mainsheet-Furler Control

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/18/2008 : 15:22:45

Here is a link to Al's mod where he did just what you are talking about.

[url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11434&SearchTerms=backstay,seat"]Al's Backstay Mod[/url]

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 06/18/2008 : 18:29:00

Randy, I had seen Al's backstay, but it's really not suitable if you have a bimini.
My version will have two full backstays, one from each seat to the top of the mast.

Of course it will involve less SS than on Al's version

Paul

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
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Response Posted - 06/19/2008 : 01:15:08

I reread Al's thread and he mentions a Swagless Stud. I found one from [url="http://mauriprosailing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=NAVN0300308&Category_Code=NAVSSTU"]Norseman[/url]. Should I understand that such a device permits me to make my own backstay? It fits on a wire and I have a stud at the end?

If so then all I need are these and new SS wire:

Paul do you plan to use the seat attachment like all did? Outside of the seats? And are you saying that if you run 2 backstays from the masthead all the way down to the seat exteriors then the backstays will not interfere with the bimini (no need to makes holes in the bimini canvas)?

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 06/19/2008 01:31:18

britinusa
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Response Posted - 06/19/2008 : 06:00:07

Steve, I'll attach a D shackle to the existing eye on the catbird seat (the welded eye used for the lifeline) and the pelican hook will attach to the D shackle.

And yes, I plan to use the swagless fittings you show, they come in all end types including pelican hooks.

I'll cut a piece of stainless tube (about 1" long 1/2" dia when I can find it! Randy!!!) and slip it on the wire prior to attaching the pelican hook. Then when the hook is closed, the tube will slip over the opening lever and prevent inadvertent release of the hook.

And yes, the wire will not interfere with the Bimini. I'm hoping this will make staging easier too.

Paul

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 06/19/2008 : 11:00:14

Are you guys certain that the little hoop that hold the lifelines is up to this task? The U bolts that my backstays go to are beefier than that welded loop. You are probably fine but the stays are a structural component of the standing rigging system. Be careful.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
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1091 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2008 : 12:22:04

Paul,

Don't you want turnbuckles on each backstay too? here is my rendition of what I think you are saying your design will look like. Notice the bimini fits in between. Also to consider is the boom pigtail, I guess we could put it over one of the turbuckles which isn't a bad idea would move the boom slightly over.

How wide did you evaluate the space will be for the bimini? My bimini will be 85"-90" wide, cockpit floor to be at 65". The standard backstay is 26' 1/4" from top to turnbuckle. So if someone can tell me the distance between the 2 outter catbird seat armrests I will be able to come up with the horizontal clearance this will give me.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 06/19/2008 12:38:50

Steve Blackburn
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Response Posted - 06/19/2008 : 13:01:40

Hmmm I did some preliminary calculations based on estimated measurements until someone can confirm the following:

Distance between 2 outter catbird seat armrests. (estimated 7.5 feet)
Height from floor to catbird seat armrests. (estimated 3 feet)
Height from floor to top of backstay turnbuckle. (estimated 6 feet).

With the above estimations the backstays should rub slightly on both sides of the bimini if the bimini is 88" wide. I wish I could just put string from the top mast to the catbird seat attachment points and measure at 65" high off the cockpit floor to get the exact measurement before I start doing this. To do so I can attach 2 strings to my main halyard and raise these to the max of the mast then attach both strings to the catbird seats and measure. Can someone do this for me so I can save 3 hours of driving time?

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 06/19/2008 : 14:16:41

Steve, Paul lives in Florida so I get his quest for a bimini. You live in Calgary, Alberta CANADA!!! You may need a snow cover but a bimini? You crazy Canadians.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
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Response Posted - 06/19/2008 : 16:12:12

Actualy, Calgary is the Sunniest city in Canada. In the summer the sun pours on us as hard as Florida to the exceptions that we don't have much humidity if any. The sun sets around 10:30PM at this lattitude we get really long days.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 06/19/2008 16:12:55

britinusa
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Response Posted - 06/19/2008 : 20:06:49

Steve, you nailed it. Yes the turnbuckles needed for tensioning are mandatory (we've felt the effects of an incorrectly tensioned backstay)

I also considered adding a backstay tensioning rig to it. That would require a sliding wire becket, tension it to increase tension and release it to lower it to the minimum as set by the turnbuckles. I feel that can come later and won't require any changes to the new setup.

Paul

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 06/19/2008 : 21:01:59

what do you think of these things for the backstays in place of inline turnbuckles?

http://www.sailorsams.com/mall/forestay_lever_316-732.asp

(obviously the SS option!)

paul

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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4479 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2008 : 21:33:57

Steve,
Do you still need this measurement? I've only glanced over this whole thread so I may have missed something, but I've got my mast up in the side yard so it's easy to go run something up the main halyard & measure down to wherever you need.

Let me know, it's supposed to be a nice day tomorrow, I'm not likely to get out there tonight though.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 06/19/2008 : 22:16:36

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> what do you think of these things for the backstays in place of inline turnbuckles?

http://www.sailorsams.com/mall/forestay_lever_316-732.asp

(obviously the SS option!)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

As much as I like SS those prices are high

and you need two of them. Turnbuckles are much less $$.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
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1091 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2008 : 23:30:09

David, thanks for the offer. I got so excited over the idea that I decided to drive the 3 hours to measure myself. The results are not conclusive. My Bimini is 88" wide (just got it yesterday), and will be at exactly 65" off the cockpit floor.

Tonight I pulled 2 lines to the top mast and attached them to the catbird seats to this point (does not change the angle much [if any] if using Al's attachment point):

Thanks for the picture Al.

Now I measured the the distance between the 2 lines at exactly 65" off the floor which gave me a result of only 74". I even brought a bimini section with me and definitely saw that it goes beyond about 5" on both sides. To install an 88" wide bimini, I would need to add a spreader of 94" wide at 75" of elevation (from floor) in between both lines. This could work and one might even use the spreader (1" SS tubing) to mount a solar panel over the bimini. However it looks kinda stupid because the lines were bulging out about 5".

Conclusion: We still need those Grommets! But they will be only 5" from the sides, really not a big deal. I sat in the catbird seats and I can tell you that in abosolutly no way is the backstay in the way. Very easy to get in and out without paying much attention. It opens up the cockpit fully and there is no way you will get your head entangled and ears scraped by the backstays in placed this way. Entering the boat from the side poses not issues either. You can walk upright all the way to the swim ladder and engine. It's really the perfect placement (well perfect if only an 88" bimini would've fit).

I'm going to do this mod and will be ordering my parts tomorrow. I should have this done in a couple of weeks. I will check out Al's attachment point. I can say that Randy is right about being concerned about using the lifeline loop. I really don't think it's strong enough. Where I chose the attachment point is slightly stronger in my opinion than where Al put it because there is nearly no leveraging, the shackle wont slide and the catbird seat has 2 nice backplates in this area.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 06/19/2008 23:41:51

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 06/19/2008 : 23:44:50

Sorry about the bimini but the rest of the project looks good. I am looking forward to seeing the photos. Your description of the freed up cockpit sounds enticing.

You must have a VERY understanding wife.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
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Response Posted - 06/19/2008 : 23:51:14

About the wife, well yeah kinda. I only paid $330 landed cost since the bimini is manufactured in the USA, no duties! I can't really fit the bimini with my adjustable backstay since I would need another big hole to let the thing go up and down and pass the lines. So the only option is to have a "fixed" backstay, and while we're at it let's make it better. I'm about to post a parts list. Should be done in 20 minutes.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 06/19/2008 23:51:47

Steve Blackburn
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Response Posted - 06/20/2008 : 00:20:53

WORK IN PROGRESS. (I'll finish this tomorrow too tired, can't think straight).

Shopping list:

These are all from Mauri Pro Sailing, never bought from them we could probably shop aroudn but this is easy for me. I will reuse the backstay from mast to turnbuckle.

2 - [url="http://mauriprosailing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=NAVN0300510&Category_Code="]Norseman Swageless Stud for 5/32 in. wire w/5/16in. Thread [/url]
1 - Norseman Swageless Eye - 5/32 in. wire w/ 3/8 pin <-- cannot find this one!
2 - [url="http://mauriprosailing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=NAVN0200510&Category_Code=NAVSF"]Norseman Swageless Fork - 5/32 in. wire w/ 5/16 pin[/url] <--- not sure about this one, kinda expensive, Al used a simpler eye. This is for attaching to the catbird seats, I plan to reuse the current bridle shackles. Comments?
1- Turbuckle

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 06/20/2008 00:21:31

frogger
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184 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2008 : 07:30:00

I recently converted to a single backstay utilizing a triple block & tackle. I first loosened the backstay, attached the triple b&t to the starboard outside catbird seat just below the seat attachment and the other end to the turnbuckle on the backstay. Removed bridle components and tightened up the t&b. I plan on using one of the existing bridles to make a ss replacement for the b&t. It really opens up the cockpit space does not interfere with bimini.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2008 : 09:51:47

Frogger would you have any pictures? Are you saying that you have a SS wire from mast to turnbuckle, then it's a B&T (line) to the catbird seat? I estimate about $300 worth of parts to do a double back stay and I'm not sure my will wife be so comprehensive. Maybe I'll go with a single backstay to the outside of the startboard catbird seat this year, add a single Grommet in the bimini. This way I can always add my second backstay next year.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 06/20/2008 09:52:35

Steve Blackburn
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Response Posted - 06/20/2008 : 10:24:04

Well if I'm gonna go with a single backstay solution attached to the catbird seat all I need is a shortened bridle. The current bridle is composed on 2 forks and the SS wire. I'd like to keep my existing bridles intact in case I need to go back to the original design. Anyone know if I can reuse the shackle currently at the backstay padeye to fit around the 1" catbird seat tubing?

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
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Response Posted - 06/20/2008 : 10:47:05

Well call me crazy for changing my mind often, but I reread Al's thread on his modification and the more I research this the closer I get to his design. Al mentions that using this double catbird seat configuration put a 10% strain on each bridle stay. So we could conclude that a single backstay would be 20% strain on a 5/32 SS wire.

So I have 2 options and would appreciate you guys to help me decide here:

1. Single backstay (like the newer models) mounted to the exterior of the catbird seat. Advantage is only 1 hole in the bimini.
2. Double backstay using the existing bridle stays to a triangle then up to the mast (exactly like Al did). This option only requires me to buy 1 Swageless stud and 2 Shackles. Advantage is lowered strain on the catbird seats. Disadvantage is 2 holes in the bimini (not a big deal). I checked it out and the angle of which the bridle stays will be at VS going straight to mast top is nearly insignificant.

Don't know...I'm starting to be convinced I should go with option #2. This option is priced at $60 and is more Admiral friendly.
2 ea Shackle, Wichard #1263 $17.00 X 2 = $34
1 ea Turnbuckle Stud, Swageless, Navtec Norseman #N030-0510 $26.80

How is a 5/32 SS wire cut? Just using cutter plyers?

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 06/20/2008 10:56:25

frogger
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Response Posted - 06/20/2008 : 11:34:27

Steve, no pictures yet, but will take some this weekend. I will shorten one of the bridles to 64" measured eye to eye and possibly replace the B&T. Advantages of B&T is that it makes backstay instantly adjustable. It does not interfere with using the seat or the bimini. I will cut the ss wire with my Dremel, as soon as I find it.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 06/20/2008 : 13:24:29

You shout cut the wire with a Dremel and a cutoff wheel. Using wire cutters will hack it up.

If you go with split option, like Al, and make the cut on the main stay, wont that put the turnbuckle up pretty high? Can you still reach it to make adjustments when putting the mast up and down?

Ultimately, the non-split option, like Frogger and 528, is very appealing if the attachment point is solid.

My concern remains that Catalina (which knows about the problem of the stays being in the way) decided to mount the connection on the sole. They could have gone to the seats but chose not to. You need to feel confident that if you lost an upper shroud in high winds that the rest of the rig, including the backstay, will keep the mast up.

Maybe not an issue but it gives me pause.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 06/20/2008 13:55:09

528
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Response Posted - 06/20/2008 : 13:47:09

I would recommend mounting the turnbuckle on your attachment point. Trying to adjust it above your head requires two hands and a bit of balance. Go ahead, ask me how I know...

Edited by - 528 on 06/20/2008 13:49:01

Steve Blackburn
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Response Posted - 06/20/2008 : 14:37:40

I just ordered my parts from Mauri Pro Sailing in Texas. I'm going with Al's design, option #2. Although I agree that a single off center backstay is good (since Catalina is doing it now on newer 250's) attaching to the catbird seats should benefit from 2 attachment points. Yes the turnbuckle will be high and will need a short ladder. However this is a non issue since I will take the mast up maybe twice per year. I also do not care about adjusting my backstay while under way. Also once adjusted the way I like it, I'll proably leave it this way always. All of my backstay remains attached when lowering the mast and trailering. My landed cost will be $98 for the swageless stud and 2 shackles. I'll take pictures soon. Hope Mauri won't take too long to ship.

528's mod looks excellent too. I just liked Al's method since the backstay is mounted even wider at the base. And to be honest I revisited 528's design only after ordering and I could've as well gone that way too. Both are excellent designs.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 06/20/2008 14:50:23

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