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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Single Backstay-Mainsheet-Furler Control

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Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
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Response Posted - 06/20/2008 : 16:39:04

Guys, from the picture it looks that we can stand right where the swim ladder is without our head hitting the backstay right? From the picture is looks ok but from my calculations it seems my head will hit. I'm starting to regret my decision already, shoul've went with 528's design.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 06/20/2008 16:55:05

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2008 : 18:55:26

Could someone (David?) be kind enough to measure the maximum width from starboard to port catbird seats (from the outside arm rest)? Then I need the height fromt the cockpit floor to the armrest. Pretty please...

Knowing that the bridle stays are 7' it will be easy to figure out.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 06/20/2008 18:56:41

britinusa
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Response Posted - 06/20/2008 : 19:12:29

Steve, just measured from outside of the catbird seats and it's 7'0"

FWIW, my bimini is fixed to the top of the coambing not to the top of the rubbing strip/hull/top joint. So my bimini is only about 6'6" wide or less (it's still raining!)

And yes, if you sit in the catbird seats, the outside bimini poles do interfere with comfort. Had I known they would make it that way I would have asked that it be wider and mounted on the outside of the coambing, but then the twin backstay would have been an issue.

Paul

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/20/2008 : 19:47:22

Thanks Paul! If it can stop raining for a bit could you measure from the cockpit floor to the top of the armrest please? Also the width of a single seat between the armrests. This way we will be able to determine clearance and I'll post a graphic.

So your Bimini is 78" wide. This is still 4" to wide, IF it is 65" tall like mine. You might be ok if it's shorter, but I remember seeing one of your pictures where you stand under your bimini manning the wheel. I think you'll unfortuneatly have to consider grommets. Couldn't you just leave the bimini, backstay and all connected, lower the mast and trailer like that?

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 06/20/2008 20:04:42

britinusa
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Response Posted - 06/20/2008 : 22:36:24

Perhaps this weekend I'll raise the stick and bimini and a couple of physical lines from the masthead.

Paul

Edited by - on

MartinJW
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Response Posted - 06/22/2008 : 11:40:31

Really dumb question: what is the (white/red) line running under the starboard seat into the cam cleat? (Is this the main sheet?)

Thanks,
Martin

Edited by - on

528
Navigator

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Response Posted - 06/22/2008 : 13:00:27

Hey Martin, not dumb at all. That is my jib control mounted on both sides. In the second pic you may see the block attached to the seat where the lifeline connects. That is the control line for the furler. I got the idea from someone elses pic on the forum, and it is a Top 10 mod imo. We had discussed how it is easy enough to trim the jib without the winch. If you need to adjust in heavy air, turn into the wind a bit, retrim and turn back on course. It is the singlehanders nirvana, again, jmho. If I take non-sailors on the boat, there is no need to try to make them unwitting crew. Currently guests can lounge anywhere in the cockpit without interfering with boat handling, or me interefering with their lounging!

The mainsheet, furler, jib, helm and seat are all in one place. Soooo easy.

Edited by - 528 on 06/22/2008 13:06:19

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2008 : 14:06:22

Dave (528): I just sailed the whole day yesterday and concluded that your single backstay is the way to go. The split backstay attached to the top of the catbird seats will get in the way a bit when entering the catbird seats and forward vision when underway. Note that if the backstay split from the top of the mast it's ok, but if split with a Y triangle it's not ok. I simulated your single backstay going through the seat like you did and it is very easy to get in and out of and the backstay is practicaly non-existant.

I'm going to try to modify my order at Mauri Pro Sailing. Hope they didn't ship yet.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 06/22/2008 14:37:57

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/22/2008 : 16:55:20

Steve, pleased to hear that 528's stay routing did not interfere with the seat at all. Correct? It just looks like it would but good to hear otherwise. I like that it attaches to a bona fide spot that Catalina engineered for the purpose.

I am contemplating the same change or taking the stay directly to the sole at the swim ladder like the new models have. Paul, you have that. Is the problem that you catch your head while around the wheel or that it interferes with the ladder use?? We do not use the ladder much but do want to clear the stay from around my head so I can move around the wheel better.

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 06/22/2008 : 18:09:43

The sole plate location for the back stay does interfere with getting to the helm on the port side, getting in and out of the catbird seat, getting in and out of the boat via the step through, and it a pain to connect/disconnect during raising/lowering the mast for trailering. It has to go!

Paul

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2008 : 18:25:34

Randy, you are correct. Dave's (528) single backstay modification does NOT interfere with seating nor going in/out of the seat. The wire points almost straight up so no problem with wheel helms. I too like the idea of attaching my backstay where it should. Here is what I have finally ordered from Mauri Pro Sailing:

1 X NAVN0200510 Norseman Swageless Fork - 5/32 in. wire w/ 5/16 pin $32.60 $32.60

1 X NAVN0300510 Norseman Swageless Stud for 5/32 in. wire w/5/16in. Thread $26.80 $26.80

10 X Feet: WIR05119316 Wire 5/32 in. 1x19 SS Type 316 (per ft.) $0.80 $8.00

So I will remove all after the turnbuckle. Now I only have a turnbuckle (female) hanging. I will use the swagless 5/16 thread stud to fit in the turnbuckle, then to a 5/32 wire, then a swageless fork, then to the port backstay padeye. My turnbuckle will be a little high (about 6.5 feet in the air), but I can adjust it easily on the trailer or at the dock where I have a small 2 step plastic ladder.

Alternatively I could change the whole wire all the way up to the mast and used a turnbuckle right at the backstay padeye. The parts for that would've been a swageless eye for the top mast pin, 5/32 wire, swageless stud, turnbuckle with toggle.

Another benefit of the single backstay is that I plan to install a [url="http://www.websweeper.com/php/bimini_tops/bim-butler.php"]Bimini Butler[/url] so I can raise the bimini those extra 6" I need to walk under it when stopped. With the single backstay almost straight up to the mast, the bimini single grommet hole will not cause any problems.

Randy about the Calgary sun: We were out all day yesterday. My wife has what my son call's "Paris Hilton" sunglasses. Here face is burnt red and has the racoon look now. My face is burnt too. I feel the sun alone probably drains about 75% of our energy just by sitting there. We were so tired yesterday.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 06/22/2008 18:45:36

528
Navigator

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181 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2008 : 19:10:02

Just had another brainstorm. If you wanted a straight run, you could drill an oriented hole through the seat bottom and thread the 5/32 to the padeye. That should have a minimal impact on the seat cushion. Ready, set, go...

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2008 : 21:12:11

The horizontal force applied to the side of the seat is minimal and passing it through the seat frame like you did is fine. Even if the backstay would be really tight I'm quite sure you could pull it at least 1" with only a couple of fingers. I think the seat is way more sturdy than a couple of fingers.

You got a really well thought out mod there Dave. Thank you so much for posting that! Sorry for my short term lack of faith, I finally saw the light this weekend! LOL.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 00:27:08

The backstay should not be tight. Steve, sorry to hear about the sunburns. I guess I need to rethink Canada!

Steve, since the stud is going into a turnbuckle shouldn't there be an issue of getting the right thread direction?? Are you sure the stud you are ordering is the right thread direction?

Edited by - Nautiduck on 06/23/2008 00:35:07

britinusa
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Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 06:14:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 The backstay should not be tight. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Randy, we noticed a considerable decrease in weather helm when we applied more tension (thus mast curviture) to the backstay. I still only hand tighten the turnbuckle but use a grip to hold the stay while doing so.

Paul

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 11:39:19

I also hand tighten the backstay like you do. Still, it is the least tensioned of the standing rigging components. That is what I meant, it is not as tight as the upper or lower shrouds. My experience is that the uppers and lowers have the primary impact on mast column. The uppers control the position of the top of the mast and the lowers control the position of the middle of the mast. The backstay is almost superfluous on a C250.

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Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 13:39:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
Steve, since the stud is going into a turnbuckle shouldn't there be an issue of getting the right thread direction?? Are you sure the stud you are ordering is the right thread direction?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Good question, but I guess you don't have to mind it since the list studs they have do not mention direction. Only 1 model of each. I picked a 5/32 wire with 5/16 thread (only 1 choice).

[url="http://mauriprosailing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=MPS&Category_Code=NAVSSTU"]Web site link[/url]

I see other manufacturers mention RH or LH (right handed, left handed). So why does the Norseman one don't mention anything about thread direction? I'm trying to conceptualize this in my mind and don't see how you could make it work if both studs have the same thread direction. Anyone care to comment?

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 06/23/2008 13:55:55

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 14:04:04

Al used a (Turnbuckle Stud, Swageless, Navtec Norseman #N030-0510) the same part I ordered (NAVN0300510). However he cut the backstay on top of the turbuckle to shorten it, then reinsert the new stud into the top of the turbuckle. I'm going to be coming from underneath of the turnbuckle. Will this work? Anyone?

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 14:37:27

I like a site called riggingonly.com. They carry several brands of mechanical fittings. I just e-mailed them asking the question. I told them I plan to use mechanical fittings to create a short wire that will attach to an existing backstay turnbuckle. In this case I would use a Hi-Mod mechanical Fork - attached to wire - attached to a Stud. I asked why I don't see LH/RH thread choices as it would seem to make a difference. I will post as soon as I get a response.

I have used riggingonly.com in the past and was happy with them.

WOW, FAST RESPONSE! From riggingonly.com:

"Mechanical fittings are only available in RIGHT HAND thread

You might have to replace the lower fitting with a swage on stud.

Thanks
Jeff"

Steve, not sure how this works out for you. I may have them build me the piece I need and swage it there. Basically the same cost. In the meantime I would use a line to secure the backstay.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 06/23/2008 14:40:05

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 14:44:08

Steve, more thoughts. Clearly getting a good measurement is an issue here. If we need a LH Stud then I think a good approach is to have a shop (riggingonly.com) make up a LH stud swaged to a length of wire. Then buy the mechanical Fork setup so you can get the length correct. In fact they recommend swaged fitting at the tops and mecahnical at the bottoms of rigging for issues related to moisture, strain, etc. Check out the site. The do pro/con on swage vs mechanical.

Just sent them another e-mail asking how to tell if the existing stud is LH or RH. Expect response soon.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 06/23/2008 14:46:28

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 14:52:48

Another response from riggingoly. He has a point.

"You might also consider replacing the entire stay. You would need 3 hands to loosen or tighten the turnbuckle if it was where the old one was."

And another.

"righthand thread screws in clockwise. threads pitch up and to the right."

Steve, I think this is the opposite of what you need.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 06/23/2008 15:13:54

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 15:10:29

Good God! I'm going to have to change my order yet once more! I can't believe how complicated this seemingly simple project has turned out to be.

Here is what I have right under the turnbuckle:

So I decided to take no chances, forgo the stud idea and go with an eye after the turnbuckle, then the regular fork to the backstay padeye.

Here are my new parts:
1 X NAVN0200510 Norseman Swageless Fork - 5/32 in. wire w/ 5/16 pin
1 X NAVN0100510 Norseman Swageless Eye - 5/32 in. wire w/ 5/16 pin
10 X WIR05119316 Wire 5/32 in. 1x19 SS Type 316 (per ft.)

To install I plan on attaching 2 lines to the catbird seats then up the mast using the main halyard (like I did to simulate Al's setup). Tighten the main halyard until the backstay starts to loosen. Start by putting in the wire and fork to the backstay, and put the eye where I need it to be. I should have an exact measurement this way. I'm aiming so the turbuckle will be 50/50 with the perfect backstay tension.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 06/23/2008 15:15:42

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 15:17:47

Steve, that sounds like a good solution. Post photos!

Nothin' is easy!

Edited by - on

SCnewbie
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166 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 16:24:06

I really like this mod. It will make installation of my bimini on the bimini butler much easier. I plan to tackle this by keeping the backstay attached to the original port side location. I don't have seats to interfere. My concern is that the original location may not be strong enough to support the stay on its own. Is that why Catalina put two of them and split the load originally?

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 18:19:38

Its never easy for the first one of anyting. I am sure the Wright Bros were pulling out their hair. Give your brain a rest, it deserves it.
Steve A

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