Association Forum - How much wind is too much wind for my C-25?

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

How much wind is too much wind for my C-25?

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

josgood
1st Mate

Member Avatar

USA
57 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/03/2008 : 00:23:29

I have been sailing my '87 C25 Std WK about 18 times now, after taking a couple (2) hour lessons. I am sailing in Dillon Colorado (9100 ft above sea level) and it is pretty well known for swirling winds. I read everything I could the last couple years and sail every weekend with whatever friend I can convince to come along (no experience at all until going with me). My wife is my most common sailing partner. That is my entire sailing experience....
Yesterday we had what I felt like were strong winds, some white caps here or there, sometimes the wind blowing the tops of the white caps off, and the wind kept changing direction every few minutes it seemed, sometimes getting nailing us broadside with a monster gust. I had the main sail reefed (I have one reefing point on the main, and set up a two line reefing to the cockpit)and I had the Genoa 150 reefed about half way (maybe more) on the roller furler. Sailing with my wife, we were clipping along pretty well most of the time over 5 knots and a good amount of the time just over 6 knots. anytime I was healing at 20 degrees I had to tell myself to calm down and not be so nervous,….. 30 degrees (on my tilt-o-meter so I could know where I really was)I was white knuckled with the rail in the water here and there..all the while hoping a big gust wouldn't knock me over and my wife out of the boat. I felt that with the reefing I would be fine, but what if I wasn't..... How much wind is too much to be safe up there for this boat? (and my minimal experience)?? What IS this boat really capable of? If I wasn’t reefed and did get knocked over and managed to stay in the boat… what point is the point of “no return”?

John

John Osgood
MastConfusion
'87 C-25 Std. WK
Lake Dillon, Colorado

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3477 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2008 : 05:20:53

John,

I do not know what exactly constitutes the point of no return. But for me, it is more of a question of what winds I enjoy sailing in and the days when there is moderate wind but then an occasional wind gust or change of direction are not my favorite days. Luckily, most days the wind is constant and tends to be in the 5-10mph during summer months and 10-15mph at other times. As long as the wind is constant, then I am a happy sailor and a bit more wind is then okay as well. It's the gusty days that I avoid or if caught out there when it turns gusty, then I reduce dsails significantly.

Recognizing those gusty wind days and prepared when going out having your main reefed is exactly the way to do it. The benefit of the furling genoa and going out with it furled 50% is exactly what I would do and then adjust accordingly. I find that whatever setting I would want the genoa set at I generally will let it out less than that initially because when the gusts come, then there is a tendency for the genoa to unfurl a bit more when the sail strains against the wind. This is not from the sheet stretching, it is generally from the genoa perhaps loosely furled the last time out and so there is some slack that is pulled out.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2008 : 06:36:25

Well, I have never managed to wash the windows on th eboat, although friends of ours had the winches in the water on their C-27. Another friend has had his Tanzer 22 far enough over to have green water in the cockpit.

We have had our boat out in winds that were kicking up waves higher than the coachouse but never buried the bow. I am very impressed with how our boat handles in all conditions except a chop.

We do not have furling, but have never sailed with anything smaller than a 110% jib, although I did buy a storm jib from a member of this forum.

I think how much is too much depends on you and your comfort/skill level. How much do you trust your boat? I sail mostly with my wife (also a novice), my 11 yr old daughter, and our infant son. After crossing the lake in winds that had us hit 7.3 kts on GPS heeled hard over most of th eway we had folks at the club we sailed into amazed that we could pull off the crossing in such weather. We shrugged and turned around and headed home.

This is our first year with a boat. our only previous experience was canoeing. I think that the key is keeping level headed, shortening sail early, and trusting your instincts. And if any member of our family thinks a passage is unsafe, we just sit it out.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2402 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2008 : 08:27:55

John, Lake Dillon will not threaten your boat or your life. What you have not developed yet is the ability to see wind on the water. The day you describe sounds like a lot of fun, an E ticket day! There is so much that comes into play on days like that.
If your headsail is a 150 and you reef it then you probably have a giant bag in the draft of the sail which is more effective at blowing your bow off course than driving the boat forward. In "control" situations I would furl the headsail on in to reduce its effect on steerage. (Many use 130s which reef to 100 much better than a 150)
Since you are new I would hazzard to guess your reefed main was probably not very flat. Learning to make your reefed main flat to reduce its draft is kind of a stage three skill. A reefed billowy main is little help and once again does not drive the boat forward well. I am glad to hear you have dual line reefing.
1. Release the vang and mainsheet
2. Release the main halyard enough to haul the reef tack to the boom.
3. Set the reef tack line.
4. Rehaul the main halyard... hard
5. Haul the clew reef line medium hard, clear sailcloth from the clew area to reduce wear on the sail, finish hauling the clew reef line... hard.
6. Set the mainsheet to close hauled... hard, set the vang.
7. Let the traveler down, (release the traveler control lines on both sides).
8. Set your course with your mainsheet and sail away.

The fun part of your day was the oscillating wind patterns. After time you will recognize lifts and knocks as they approach on the water. Until then do not cleat the mainsheet in spooky winds, (you do wear gloves don't you), you will feel more confident knowing you can release your grip and the boat will stand up. Usually wind like that will have a pattern to it; lift lift LIFT KNOCK repeat. The trick is to sense that last lift an know the knock is going to follow. Usually the last lift will be at a high wind speed compared to the earlier lifts, that is the clue that the next "puff" will be a gust from a knocking direction, which will be as much as 90 degrees off your course and can tack you over if you cannot "get down" low enough to catch the gust. Once again having the headsail furled in this situation reduces the chance of getting tacked over by the backing gust.
Eventually you will head to the lake when they call "area lake wind warnings are in effect" it is some of our best sailing!

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2008 : 08:47:37

All of the above is, of course, right on and learning about sail trim and the various methods and settings is a long term process. This was also one of my big concerns starting out a few years ago. Something I found/find comforting is the understanding that a C25 really isn't going to get completely knocked down from wind alone. As the boat heels, the wind is spilled out of the sails, and she rounds up. Certain combinations/conditions of wave and wind can become threatening, but these boats are rather sturdy and safe and fortunately for us, famous for taking care of her skippers!

Edited by - jerlim on 09/03/2008 08:49:19

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3477 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2008 : 08:56:39

IMHO the key is understanding what constitutes the conditions that would lead to a knockdown or swamping a boat or a sinking. I've never had a knockdown, swamp, or a sinking, so I can only speculate from my sailing experience and the descriptions of others.

The catalina 25 is a heavy boat made to handle rough conditions and sail well. The different keels make a difference, but to generalize I would watch out for heavy wind that changes directions quickly, squalls combined with high seas. Otherwise I thinks this boat sails so well you are going to have a hard time getting into trouble.

Every boat has it's own behavior so you hafta learn what to watch out for. I've dropped the rail several times in my fixed keel boat and my boat wants to turn up to wind so hard I can hardly keep her laid over. But if I had run aground in such conditions I could swamp the boat easily.

Hobie cats ( an early design )usta pitchpole so bad that people that sailed them regularly would insist on wearing a helmet. The front of the pontoon would submarine and the whole boat would go over throwing you straight into the mast, head first.

On some boat designs if the rail went under as the boat was turning up and the rail stayed under it would catch the water and stop the boat as the keel pops up out of the water, or in the swing keel design, if the keel was not locked down it would swing up into the trunk with great force and you would loose the weight of the keel to bring the boat back up and it could swamp and throw you out of the boat. A knockdown.

In my years of experience I've only heard people say that the catalinas were laid up so heavily that they were safe and would not go down like other lighter boats. I think that is part of the reason they are so much fun, you can go out in pretty much any weather and sail the boat without fear of going over. My experience lake sailing the catalina 25 that I have is that we go out when the storms come in and have a great time. One hand for the tiller and one for the sheets, ready to let them go. In smaller boats I'd run from the storm, in the 25 I run to them. Even in a bigger boat I was more afraid of the forces with the bigger sail area. The reefed cat 25 seems pretty easy to handle even with the gusts. The only thing I keep an eye on is to make sure I keep moving, you can get into trouble if you get stopped and the wind can hit you and it converts all the forces into healing over only. That can knock you down.

The downwind runs in a storm are pretty hairy also. I don't even like to run the main over gusty 25 mph winds going downwind. And just learning to get the main down in such wind is a real fun little trick.

The accidental jibe is another way to get puckered. The complications are how big the seas are running. In lake Eufaula if the wind is from the north the waves can be fetching up from 20 miles and it can get up a bit of a swell. If you jib up into a wave you can get knocked down.

Again this is lake sailing, without running seas like I've been in offshore. I've been offshore when I'd be ready to rig a sea anchor if we had lost power for fear of going over. I'm sure others have had different experiences offshore.

I don't think your wind speed is the question, but rather the overall conditions. You are the Captain and you set the tone. You are the one that knows, or does not know his boat....

Has anyone had a knockdown in a catalina 25?

Edited by - on

josgood
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
57 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2008 : 09:05:43

all great information. Frank, I spent quite a bit of time learning about reefing the main, and installing the two line set up. I reefed it on the way out and there wasn't a wrinkle in it. No... on the gloves.. I will get some, and yes I was "cleated down" as such... my main sheet has a fiddle/ratchet that I pull up on to clamp / cleat and snap/pull down on to release.... truth is, I would find myself spilling the wind by changing course and not letting the main go... I was kind of afraid of that beast flying around loose... I will give it a try as you suggested.... to be clear Frank, leave the Genoa furled up all the way? and go w/ a reefed main only when it is nasty and frothy out there?
John

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2008 : 09:11:43

The question should be, "How much wind is too much wind for <u>you</u>?" I recently saw a Cal 25 (which is approximately comparable to a Catalina 25) motor downwind, under bare poles, in winds of nearly 50 knots, gusting to nearly 60 knots. That was an experienced racing sailor, who handled the boat extremely well. I'm not sure the average small boat sailor would have been able to cope with those winds and seas. In the hands of a skilled sailor, the boat can withstand more than it's designers intended, but the skipper and crew have to have the seamanship skills to help the boat. Take all the seamanship courses you can from the Coast Guard Auxiliary, and from the US Power Squadron, and read Chapman's and The Annapolis Book of Seamanship and other authoritative sources, so you'll be able to help the boat.

Edited by - on

josgood
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
57 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2008 : 09:22:04

my friend bought his first ATV some time back, and I told him "you don't know your ATV until you roll her a couple times" he did just that (by accident) and learned how far he could push her. over time he learned how to better handle her and pushed her harder than when he had rolled her... thing is... should I be white knuckled healed at an honest 30 degrees and trust that she will take care of me if she gets hit broadside from a gust because I missed reading the wind as Frank spoke of? or should I bring her back down to 20 degrees of so and be safer? I don't want to push it too hard ...or maybe I should just suck it up and enjoy it ?
John

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2008 : 09:28:31

When out in a blow, I prefer to have a genoa up and no main (or a double reef) to a main alone. We were outin a howl once with only the main up and couldn't go more than 2 knots. Thats too slow if I need to get out of trouble, plus the waves were running faster than us so it made for a bumpy ride.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3072 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2008 : 11:49:39

At a certain point the windage of the C25 hull itself will start generating substantial forces and you may not be able to get the boat to go the direction you want it to. That point would be very dangerous off a lee shore... my very rough guess is at somewhere around 40kts in a C25 it will start to become very difficult to define your own course. (i.e. you'd better have enough sea room to run downwind or lie ahull).

Downside of a roller furling system is that your partially furled headsail becomes a heeling machine rather than providing thrust in the you want to go. I'd rather compeltely stow the jib and move slowly under main alone than risk a round-down broach... that's the most dangerous 'crash' you can have.

Just my 2 cts. Lots of good advice here.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2008 : 12:32:16

I suspect you were in the mid-to-high 20s, maybe gusting over 30... I've experienced that kind of wind on Steamboat Lake above Steamboat Springs, on a Hobie 16. We'd have a hull flying at 45 degrees, about the limit, and then get slammed by a gust from the other side. On Dillon, the wind will go up over a ridge, curl down, and sweep back toward the ridge--instantly backwinding you--like the wind against the back of your head in a convertable.

I liked to sail with our 130 genny alone on blustery days on Long Island Sound--less heel and more drive than with the main alone... but I virtually never had swirling winds except once in a micro-burst (a downward burst of air). Genny alone could be trickier for you because it won't tack or jibe itself when you get one of those surprises--I agree on main-alone in your situation. But if you're developing into a "yee-haw" sailor, what can we say? If you replace the genny some day, you might want to consider a 130 or smaller for your conditions--the less rolling up, the better.

The good news is you don't have to worry about big seas helping to capsize you. In that lake, you can just about put the mast on the water (physically almost impossible) and she'll come back up (as long as your sail locker is latched). The bad news is, relating to Clam's cautions, you always have a rocky lee shore to contend with.

All that said, a C-25 did sink on Lake Dillon a year or two ago, but I think considerable overloading and alcohol were involved.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1520 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2008 : 12:35:26

It's all about comfort and excitement.

I enjoy riding in a blow by standing on a thick cushion that forms the back of the seat on the opposite gunwale/coaming, but others need to stand against the edge of the bench. If the jib sheet is crossed to the windward side, both sheets and the tiller are conveniently nearby (no roller furling). I can watch the signs of the wind gusts and control the speed and the heel without changing positions. It's really quite comfortable for me.

Driving the boat with gusty winds is really exciting, if you can find a comfortable position.

Edited by - JohnP on 09/03/2008 14:43:50

Patrice C25
1st Mate

Members Avatar

78 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2008 : 13:10:16

Hi,
Wouldn't it be best to keep the boat at between 15-20 deg. Play with the sail to keep it there. The hull is not very effective over this angle, and won't be faster.
This is my opinion.... :-)
But for sure, this is a lot of fun, adrenaline at peak...

And as mentioned before, the boat can take a lot more than we can imagine.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

Members Avatar

USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2008 : 13:40:48

Having been 80º over in a 3' -4' swell (that is definitely with a rail down), I have a lot of confidence in this boat. Pearl has been comfortable in 5' with 20 kt, and safe but not so comfortable in a 5' following sea with 10 kts astern. Yesterday we broad reached about about 10 miles in 3' -4' and 13 - 18 kts and had a blast. We also, ever so slowly, pulled away from a Buccaneer and a Cape Dory.

So, as others have said, your comfort level determines the limit. I think your conservative approach is perfect. Each time you get close to your limit you will learn a little more and adjust your limits upward. If anybody aboard is really worried, it is time to back off. I agree that rolling up the jenny in shaky conditions will calm things down, and motor sailing with main and iron jenny will usually get you home faster and safer than motor alone.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2008 : 14:04:22

the boat is quite safe heeling up to 45 degrees. It will round up around then - just as designed.

15 to 20 degrees heel is the zone you want to be in. I know it feels like you're in over your head at first, but that is the zone in which the boat performs best.

In strong, gusty winds, have the shrouds tighter, backstay on, be prepared to reef and double reef, and keep your hand on the mainsheet to dump it if you go to far over.

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2008 : 15:02:27

John

Some folks wonder why their ADMIRALS would rather go shopping when their CAPTAIN goes sailing..........

Val on Calista # 3936, Patchogue, N.Y.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3072 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2008 : 15:56:11

>"wonder why their ADMIRALS would rather go shopping when their CAPTAIN goes sailing"

Hmmm... 'cause there are no shoe stores out on the water?

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2008 : 16:15:10

John

Some folks wonder why their ADMIRALS would rather go shopping when their CAPTAIN goes sailing..........

Val on Calista # 3936, Patchogue, N.Y.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Val Bisagni]

I think the biggest smile I ever saw on my wifes face was during a race a few years ago. We were in the High Sierra regatta at Hunington Lake, CA. during one of the races two Moor 24's (these types of boats that have done the trans pac) lost their masts, and a Holder 20 sank (they did get it out) I don't know what the wind speed was but we had our main hit the water She just laughed and said this is great.

Edited by - on

josgood
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
57 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2008 : 16:39:03

my wife was smiling having fun "when I stopped barking orders"
little did she know I had white knuckles and feared for my life :)
I have a 130 that came with the boat and will put that on next year.
my main sail is the original (pretty good shape I think).. is it expensive to ad a second set of reefing points, or is that a good reason (excuse) to get a new sail? what would the set up look like for those??? a second set of lines to the cockpit?
BTW... I will start closing the hatch and put in the boards when it get hairy out there.
letting the main sheet go to dump the wind doesn't get you in trouble with the boom flying around?

Edited by - on

josgood
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
57 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2008 : 16:54:49

so.. what exactly does round up mean? and A: Matt... how did you two managage to stay IN the boat with the mast touching the water? and B: why didn't yours "round up"? C: wind blowing, mast pinned close to the water, dump the sails and she comes right back up? or does it find a way on its own to do it and that's what you mean by rounding up?
John

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2008 : 17:53:23

"Rounding up" is an expresson for the boat spontaneously turning into the wind. A: I'm sure Matt stayed on the boat by holding on tight

B: dunno, Matt will. C: yes and yes, probably. Once the mast is knocked down, there is no more wind force on the sail and the keel does what keels are supposed to do -- Stand you back up. If you continue to attempt to maintain course and sail trim as before, over you'll go again.

Dave Bristle mentioned the cockpit lockers. If the weather starts to get rough, make sure hatches and lockers are secured so that should you go over on your side, you don't take on excess water. If you do, you might well come back upright only to sink.

To answer your original question, I think that if you follow your instincts and reef when you think you should & stay in port when you think you should, you won't find yourself in wind that your boat can't handle.

Oh, yeah, you're wearing PFD's, right?

Edited by - on

josgood
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
57 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2008 : 18:14:13

so worst case scenario... i lose my seat cushions or my hat... feeling better now

yes, we wear the mustang hydrostatic inflatables all the time... a little pricey, but never tempted to take them off as they are SO comfortable

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2008 : 18:54:16

"Rounding up" (spontaneous heading into the wind) occurs when the boat is heeled enough to lift a significant amount of the rudder blade out of the water and, due to its angle, make its turning force less horizontal and more vertical. All of this prevents the rudder from counteracting the boat's natural weather helm, which increases with heel due to the asymetrical underwater shape, so to weather she goes.

(How's that for a $+!nkp*++er?

)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 09/03/2008 18:55:55

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2008 : 19:10:42

Yeah, what Dave said.

Edited by - on

Deric
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2008 : 19:15:41

I have learned that well tuned sails allows one to build confidence in the boat's ability to handle well in all sorts of wind conditions.

As an example, during my early days, I didn't have the correct tension on the backstay as per the condition of the wind; hence, the boat may have been at 20 degree angle but I felt as if I was fighting the boat;
whereas, now I feel very comfortable at 30-35 degrees as long as my sails and rigging are tuned properly.

Keep reading, keep learning, keep asking questions, and keep sailing, take small steps.

Enjoy,
Deric

Edited by - on

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.