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How much wind is too much wind for my C-25?

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2008 : 21:03:22

Rounding up ain't so bad. It's the 'round down' that will get ya. The violent jibe that often occurs can do lots of damage to the rig and to people.

Here's a classic web video of this phenonema: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whSHw4k2yLo

Heh.. "We'll be right back Jill!"

More carnage here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNJQMwW7iUY&feature=related

Stay away from spinnakers and you probably won't need to worry about it. :>)

Edited by - ClamBeach on 09/03/2008 21:32:53

josgood
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 09/03/2008 : 21:41:03

so, it wil round up reguardless of what I am doing with the rudder?
i haven't felt as if I am fighting the boat, but more like fighting "courage" to sail not knowing if I was at 30% of "max" or 90%
seems like what I am hearing is the degree of heel is relative to the max (for an experienced guy)
I will double that and say that 30 degree heel is at 60% max for me and the boat for now and 45 degree is at 90%.... trouble waiting to happen unless I spill the wind some..
what about the second reefing point?
John

Edited by - on

josgood
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 09/03/2008 : 22:37:59

yeah... totaly don't need that trouble yet

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pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 09/04/2008 : 08:05:47

I cannot imagine a second set of reef points on an inland lake.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 09/04/2008 : 08:44:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Deric
 I have learned that well tuned sails allows one to build confidence in the boat's ability to handle well in all sorts of wind conditions.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Right! Carrying the right amount of sail area and trimming the sails correctly, reduces, to a minimum, the tendency of a boat to round up.

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josgood
1st Mate

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57 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2008 : 08:47:43

Ok, one last one then, on a broad reach or straight down wind, trying to get back to port in a blow..20-25 knots....gust of more.. keep my 150 (or my 130 next year) on the furler furled completely, and my main sail reefed, any suggestions on the best way to keep from having an accidental jibe and the boom ruining gear? anything practical to "tame it" or restrict it from sweeping the deck?
I really do appreciate all the advice I have been getting the last couple years reading and most importantly on this post... HUGE help
John

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2008 : 09:34:25

First, in your tricky conditions, I'd avoid running dead downwind and use a couple of broad reaches to head down. When jibing between them, harden the mainsheet before turning, to minimize the shock when the sail snaps the boom over. An alternative to jibing is the 270 degree tack.

Second, for your conditions, I might recommend investing in a [url="http://www.dutchmanboombrake.com/Product.htm"]Dutchman Boom Brake[/url]. It greatly slows the motion of the boom during a jibe--I've seen a demo, and it's impressive. Pricey, but your situation might justify it better than most. (BTW, I'm not a fan of "preventers", but that's just me.)

Also, my preferred sail downwind is the genny--more like front-wheel-drive, and less likely to cause a problem with an unexpected jibe. With a 150, I'd roll it up a little first for better downwind shape based on the sheeting angle. 110-120 is plenty of sail (for me) in 25 knots. But all of this suggests you're dousing the main before running home--that might be a bit much.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 09/04/2008 09:51:41

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2008 : 13:11:43

I second Dave's second recommendation.

Downwind in a blow, I'd use my smallest jib and leave the mainsail in the bag.
On a broad reach, your boat will sail just fine with jib only.
When I get lazy or am not worried about sailing to windward, I often sail on jib alone.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 06:58:59

Passage sailed to windward pretty well on her 130 alone, too--faster and with less heel than on main alone... That was often our choice when out "sailing to nowhere" in gusty conditions. But I'll acknowledge that John's conditions, with swirling winds that might suddenly reverse on him, could suddenly backwind a genny when they would just push over the main. So main-alone might be better for him when things get too blustery. Everything's relative.

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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3285 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 12:01:56

I find the boat will sail pretty well under 2nd reefed main alone in a blow around 30+ knots. Don't expect to point upwind at all and take great care to make sure you don't get blown down onto docks, jettys, etc. Your autopilot will NOT handle it. I've been out several times in these conditions - I stay in the harbor (or at least close) but it is the only chance to practice heavy weather sailing around here.

I don't have roller furling, I do have a 60% storm jib. Double reefed main and 110% jib will stand up to a lot of wind.

I have boom preventers rigged and ready to go at all times. These are lines from the mid stanchion bases on each side. The line has a sliding knot (known as a rolling hitch). The line is terminated in a whichard shackle which I can clip on the vang - boom attachment point. The sliding knot allows you to adjust the length so you can position the boom in and out as you sheet.

I hate accidental gybes and use these preventers all the time, not just in survival conditions. I think the gooseneck is weak and needs to be protected.

Take care, don't dip the prevented boom in the water during a big roll (sheet it in).

Edited by - on

Cbucki1
1st Mate

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USA
47 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 14:30:45

John,

Chuck, from Summit Oasis - I have sailed on Lake Dillon for 2 years now, and totally understand where you are coming from.

This lake has some of the fastest changing weather I have seen in my 20 years of sailing. Its one of the only places where you regularly can see two boats with spinakers up pointing directly for each other (both on a run).

Regardless, never underestimate mother nature, especially on lake Dillon. In gusty conditions, I prefer to sail with just the main, as I can release it the quickest - Its allways in my hand (with the tiller in the other). I also have learned to ALLWAYS scan the water to try to anticipate gusts / changes in wind.

See you on the lake!
Chuck

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josgood
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 14:36:13

Chuck, thanks...
I am in a slip in the Frisco Marina. I will look for you on the water

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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3159 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 16:28:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 I cannot imagine a second set of reef points on an inland lake.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I have considered a second set on my lake from time to time. It is a big lake, and winds can become quite strong. Our boat came off Lake Erie and the PO thought it worthwhile to install a second set of reef points when he had a new main made up.

I thought that windspeed was what determined the need for a double reef in the main, not the size of the body of water. Am I misguided?

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stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 17:23:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I thought that windspeed was what determined the need for a double reef in the main<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You were correct, it is the wind.

I have two reef points on my main. I've used them both. I've read on this forum that two reef points are not needed. I could not disagree more.

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pastmember
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Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 17:39:52

If I had a swing keel on big water I would want a second reef as well.

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josgood
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 23:08:49

but a wing keel... not so much?

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Even Chance
Captain

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393 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2008 : 07:51:59

Two important words: local knowledge. A persistent issue in this forum is that those of us who sail in the Chesapeake have different experience from those who sail in SF Bay from those who sail in the Great Lakes from those who sail in inland lakes . . . ad infinitum, ad nauseum. Of course, there are gross commonalities in the art and science of sailing, but nowhere is local knowledge more crucial than in sail and anchor selection. Like Dave, I've found in the Chesapeake that anywhere from a beam to broad reach, genny alone works best for me in big winds. On the other hand, I don't get the sudden wind shifts I hear you talking about, and understand the argument for reefed main for control's sake.

I looked up your lake on google earth -- the scenery must be spectacular! Surrounded as you are by mountains, I can imagine why you get such variable winds, affected (I would guess) by williwaws -- blasts of cold air "falling" down the mountain slopes. I know how the wind often shifts when I pass under a big bridge (Rappahannock River Bridge or Chesapeake Bay Bridge), and I would guess that prevailing winds are hugely affected by the mountains which almost completely surround your reservoir.

All of which is to say . . . listen most closely to the experience of those who sail where you sail.

Edited by - Even Chance on 09/06/2008 07:54:44

josgood
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 09/06/2008 : 10:36:11

I agree totaly with what you are saying, and it is a great reminder to seek out local knowledge. My main thrust for this was.. how far is too far to push THIS boat and what are the best aproaches to dealing with heavy wind with this boat..

If others came back and said "John.. keep it at 15 degrees... 20 tops or you could lose the boat" I would back down a smidge...
what I heard is 30 is fine.. 45 may be pushing it unless I am reefed so I can't get knocked over... but even if I do ... If I have my vests on, hatch closed, and boarded up... I have nothing to worry about even if I get pinned with the mast in the water...

obviously there was a lot more to it, but my mind is at ease, and I have many new lessons (that I didn't have to learn the hard way) to take back out to the water and the mountains :)
thanks again everyone...
John

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pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2008 : 11:21:03

Yep, you got it, and as Brooke says, from this point on its pretty much all local knowledge. Trust the boat, sail smart, know your venue, have fun.

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2008 : 22:57:10

Any of you Lake Dillon guys ever get to Steamboat Springs? I've got a cousin who lives there. He runs the Tennis Center in Steamboat. We were there last fall the week before it really started snowing. Came down through Silverthorne on our way back to the airport in Denver. Didn't know about Lake Dillon at the time. Maybe next trip we can swing by for a look.!

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josgood
1st Mate

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USA
57 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2008 : 23:00:46

yeah, don't get to Steamboat as much now as I used to when I was younger...
great natural hotsprings near there ... best in the winter

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BengeB
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2008 : 21:49:02

I have sailed on Dillon a lot and my dad got second in the 71 Butterfly Nationals. He now has a shirt that says the wind dosen't blow on Dillon it Sucks!

We sail on Alcova for the Wyoming Govenors Cup and the wind is simmilar to Dillon. Two years ago we ripped our main ( I had the lines in the middle of the sail tied to tight while reefed). Anyway we wone the next two races with just the 110 jib and were dunking our winches in some gusts. I would suggest a smaller head sail and the boat will round up when you heal to much. There is now way to stop it. It is nice sailing with just the jib when the wind is blowing that hard.

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josgood
1st Mate

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57 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2008 : 22:39:40

email me, I would love to try and get out one time with you before it freezes over

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2008 : 07:48:33

One thing that hasn't come up on this thread, but is probably worth reminding folks about is the use of jacklines and a harness. If you are out in winds strong enough to round up the boat, you should be tied in. Anyone going forward needs to be clipped in on the high side.

In our marina, ours is the only boat with a tether and jacklines, and there have been a few times when I reached for them when things got a little hairy out there. I haven't gone for a swim yet, but one misplaced foot on a slippery deck canted to 30 degrees could mean a lot of trouble in winds that make recovery difficult.

All that jacklines are is webbing straps running fore and aft along the deck. You can pick up cheap webbing at a fabric store, or go for the good stuff at REI, MEC, or any other outdoors store (look in the climbing department). The tether will run you all of $30, and a harness can be had for under $100. This is the same cost as an inflateable PFD, and keeps you out of the water and with the boat. A pretty good option if you ask me.

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