Association Forum - Need a new mains'l: what brand?

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Need a new mains'l: what brand?

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

Randall
Navigator

Member Avatar

123 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/25/2002 : 20:00:39

My 79 Cat tall rig needs a new main. It has the original main (#1459) which has been patched twice by previous owners. One patch job is fairly skillful, the other glaringly apparent. The main was ripped in half about 3/4ths of the way up from the boom. Coarse, heavy canvas was used on both sides to reinforce it. It's homely.

Now there is a new hole growing behind the middle batten pocket.

What brands and features would you recommend?
Since I have to deal with the disadvantages of the T/R-- lower boom height & added tenderness-- I figure I might as well maximize it's performance. So I would like a high performance sail that will last twenty years like the original has.

I've never raced, but want to, so I would like a very efficient sail, but not at the expense of durability. I want at least one set of reef points, but would a second set of reef points be a good idea on a tall rig? I normally sail in an area where 15-30 knot winds are fairly commonplace. I also have dreams of offshore hops on the Texas gulfcoast.

I also like the ideas you gave me in previous posts about installing an extra-low set of reef points (cringle?) so I can raise the boom a foot or so for casual sailing under a tall bimini.

Would full battens be a good idea, and if so how many? I use an adjustable topping lift and have a fairly new maincover, so I'm not looking at installing lazyjacks at this time. I'm only considering full battens for performance. The halyard is led aft through a spinlock, so it is easy to lower the main slowly, and flake and tie it as I go.

Thanks,
Randall
79 T/R, S/K, Dinette, Honda 5

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2002 : 20:13:22

Randall,

Have you seen Nate's post on the General Forum today about his new main? He says...,

"I just received my new mainsail from Ullman in c/o Catalina Direct and I must say I think I got one hell of a deal!! All the little extra
add-ons that normally jack up the cost of a sail were included...full battens, draft stripe, reef points, jack line, class insignia, sail number, cunningham, flattening reef!
As usual the service and support from Catalina Direct was outstanding, something often lost in todays marketplace. Kuodos to them for keeping us in affordable parts and doing it with a smile! Now all I have to do is wait until Saturday morning to play with my new toy. Anyone need a 15 year-old, bagged-out mainsail....cheap?" - Nate Adams

Don Lucier, North Star
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - on

nate
Navigator

Members Avatar

240 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2002 : 22:02:31

Randell,
As Don mentioned, I just took delivery of a new main a couple days ago and I am very impressed with the quality of the sail for the price. It came with all the features you mentioned at a price that I thought was reasonable. I don't race my boat but would like to take part in a few beer-can/club races in the future so replacing my original main was a high priority.
Catalina Direct's price for full battens was only 20 bucks more than trad and the sail comes from the Ullman loft not the Catalina factory. In your search, don't overlook Catalina Direct as a source for quality sails!!
Nate

Edited by - on

Randall
Navigator

Members Avatar

123 Posts

Response Posted - 09/26/2002 : 02:57:44

Thank guys,

No, I hadn't checked the general site, but I shall.

I ordered the Catalina Direct catalog 2-3 weeks ago, but haven't received it yet. I was told they were being reprinted and were on back order. I've never seen a CD catalog, so I don't know what to expect. I have lots of questions that may be answered when it finally arrives. I'm especially curious about the availability of replacement companionway boards.

Randall

Edited by - on

Wahoo
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
34 Posts

Response Posted - 09/26/2002 : 06:50:11

Randall:
If you are interested in a set of companion way boards, I may be of help. I ordered a set from CD last year (you'll gulp at the price ...$250 then, I don't know what they are asking now), but then decided to make the old ones work. They are still new in the CD box. Let me know if interested.

Ron Reinsel C-25 Hoo's Here #3992

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 09/26/2002 : 10:26:44

Just a thought on the hatchboard question. My '78 has the cheaper plywood variety which I have now painted. Last summer, I bought another '78 to fix up and sell. It had teak hatchboards, that when varnished were BEAUTIFUL. I thought of switching them, but found that the two boats had quite different measurements of the companionway. The teak board wouldn't have fit without extensive "cutting down". I let them go with Suede Shoes, the boat I sold.....Don't assume that they're all interchangeable.

Gary B.
Encore! #685

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5932 Posts

Response Posted - 09/26/2002 : 12:06:50

Wow! $250.00 for a set of hatchboards! I made a set a few years ago, to use temporarily while I was refinishing the teak on my boat. They don't look great, because I used cheap plywood and, since they were just for temporary use, I made them quickly and sloppily, but they can be made quickly, easily and nicely with a table saw or with a circular saw and a router, using the old boards as a pattern.

If you don't know how to use the tools to make the necessary cuts, just watch Norm Abrams on a couple episodes of the New Yankee Workshop, and you'll be able to figure it out. You can cut out the basic shapes of the hatchboards with either a table saw or a circular saw. Where the hatchboards overlap, you can cut the overlaps with either the table saw or a router.

Making them out of solid wood rather than plywood would be a little more complicated, and require a little more millwork, but it still could be done less expensively than 2 1/2 boat units.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 09/26/2002 : 13:54:11

Randall,

Most of all major sailmakers are reputable and provide, in most instances great service(Ullman, UK, North, Sobstad, Quantum). I purchased a main from Sobstad and it is great, I had it cut like a racing sail, but it was made out of Dacron, not their laminate material. If you want something efficient, most major lofts can cut a good quality Dacron Sail and provide the service to make sure it is tweeked the way you want it. Dacron has great durability....

Most of your hard core guys are going to go with a laminate sail, but after 3 or 4 years, you'll need a new one. And you'll get sick of rolling it instead of flaking. Worrying about how tight you tie it to the boom, etc.

Two reef points would be good...I might talk to Steve Milby regarding a shelf foot and flattening reef, but IMHO, anything over 20kts (and you say your typically in 15 to 30) the flattening reef is still going to leave way too much cloth up. This would be a good conversation to have with your sailmaker.

Overall though, the best thing you can do is be comfortable with who you are buying from.....

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d603b3127cce9f858f0ef3ef0000001010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5932 Posts

Response Posted - 09/26/2002 : 16:35:49

Randall,

I have used a shelf foot and flattening reef on my main sail for 20+ years for racing and cruising, and really like them. To make the shelf foot, the sailmaker adds fabric to the foot that makes a very deep pocket along the foot of the mainsail. It is great for light air sailing. The flattening reef is used to eliminate the deep pocket and flatten the mainsail quickly when the wind pipes up. They are not expensive options when a new sail is being ordered.

Recently, one person, whose opinion I would not disregard, told me that the shelf foot is old technology, and that the current state-of-the-art is the loose-footed mainsail. Supposedly, someone has studied the airflow over the surface of shelf-footed mainsails and found that there is drag along the foot of the sail. The presence of drag means that the air doesn't pass smoothly over the surface of the sail, and thus the sail doesn't generate as much power. If the shelf-footed mainsail does in fact generate drag, it is only along the lowest, horizontal surface of the sail. The deep-pocketed, vertical surface still generates lots of power.

The fellow said that the loose-footed mainsail can be deeply pocketed, just like the shelf-footed mainsail, and it can be quickly and easily flattened when the wind increases, but it doesn't generate drag.

One frequent problem that I have heard about with the loose-footed mainsail is that they are somewhat fragile at the clew. Because all the stress of the wind is focussed on the clew, the grommet has a tendency to tear out. I can tell you that there is no such fragility with the shelf-footed mainsail.

To summarize, what I think the fellow is saying is that the shelf-footed mainsail is more powerful than a standard-cut mainsail, but that the loose-footed mainsail is somewhat more powerful than both. I don't know whether it is a little or a lot more powerful. I would guess the former.

As Duane Wolff suggested, you should probably discuss these options with your sailmaker. My recommendation is to choose between one of these two options. Either one will be faster and more fun to use than a standard-cut mainsail.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Randall
Navigator

Members Avatar

123 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2002 : 04:08:07

Wow, I AM going to have to discuss it with a sailmaker! I've never even heard the term "shelf-footed" before. I noticed on the North Sails website that they were advertising a loose-footed main for Cats, and that was a surpriser for me, too.

I've been sailing for 10 years now, and the Cat 25 is my 5th boat. The problem is, when we go to the lake we do the same things over and over, so I haven't really built a lot of skills. I've basically sailed for 1 year, 10 times. I've never raced, and have seldom sailed with others to learn from them.

Time to do some studyin', I reckon!

Randall

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2002 : 10:37:52

Hi Randall... I've heard good things about loose-footed mains for some time--would probably go that way if I were buying now. If you do, I believe you'll want to rig (if you don't have) a multi-part outhaul to be able to really crank it down for heavy air. The CD handbook shows a nice system.

But then, I just watch (and occasionally crew in) races...

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2002 : 14:29:33

More of my two cents.....

I have a loose footed main. While there is a good amount of stress on the clew, it isn't any more than a bolt roped bottom. As a matter of fact, the stress on the clue is most likely identical. One benefit I have found with a loose foot that most wouldn't even think of....When I single hand the boat, the boom becomes a holding spot when going forward. Minor as it may be, it has made a difference on a few occasions....

other thoughts:

Full Battens - Definitely a good idea....

Add more roach - Its within the rules and puts more square footage up top where you want it...

Get two reef points, but discuss with the sail maker where you want them based on conditions in the area. Sometimes the normal distance between the first and second reef point may take in too much or let out too much cloth for what you may find to be common heavy wind conditions in your area...

Get him to throw in the stripes, logo, bag, sail-ties, leech lines (and cleats) foot lines, etc...A lot of lofts will charge for these, negotiate some of them off the bill if possible.

Its tough when all you'll be spending is 450 to 750 (may be a lot for you, but not the loft) but see if you can get the sailmaker to pry is a$$ off the big boats (some of which spend a few thousand a year) and take a sail with you. What you learn from him may be worth more than that amount of time on the race course over the next few years....

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d603b3127cce9f858f0ef3ef0000001010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5932 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2002 : 17:13:16

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I have a loose footed main. While there is a good amount of stress on the clew, it isn't any more than a bolt roped bottom. As a matter of fact, the stress on the clue is most likely identical. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Now, Duane, re-think that. When a mainsail has a bolt-roped foot, the wind blows on the fabric of the sail and the stress is spread all along the foot of the sail. Much of the stress is carried by the bolt rope. On a loose-footed mainsail, all the stress is carried by the tack and the clew. The foot of the sail is not attached anywhere, and there is nothing between the tack and the clew to help carry some of the stress. Your clew might not have torn, but that is a not-uncommon complaint that is made by owners of loose-footed mainsails.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2002 : 19:00:15

I agree with Steve--there has to be a lot more stress at the tack and the clew. That's why I would only loose-foot a sail that had been made for it, or a sail that had been expertly modified for it. It's not rocket science--the genoa is loose-footed after all.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2002 : 21:22:01

This Sailnet article on main sail details by AirForce Sails Product Manager Brian Hancock states that,

"Many older designs still offer a track along the boom, calling for slides to be built into the foot of the mainsail...this old way of doing things should be discarded in favor of a loose-footed mainsail. The loose-footed arrangment is cleaner, simpler, friction free, and it allows for more adjustment to the sail shape."

Here is the article.

Let's look at a mainsail, part by part, to determine what features are best for you, starting with the number of reefs. If you live in the northeastern US, like I do, and only sail in the summer, then more than likely you will only have occasional need for a single reef. There is almost no point adding a second reef as it only adds weight to your sail, making it harder to set and trim, and of course it adds to the price. On the other hand, if you are planning on heading for distant shores and encountering the vagaries of the wind gods, then don't leave home without a second, and in some cases, a third reef. You will need them. Whatever the case, make sure that the first reef counts. Have your sailmaker make it deep enough so that when you reduce sail, you actually feel the difference.

With laminated sails, be sure that there is a reinforcement strip running across the sail at each reef point to take the outhaul load. Because of the radial panel layout, the threadline across the sail is on the bias and vulnerable to stretching and distortion. Discuss your sailing plans with your sailmaker to be sure that the number and size of reefs are suitable for the type of sailing you plan to do, and that they compliment your headsail configuration. Finally, and most importantly, ask your sailmaker to add rings sewn to webbing, often called "floppys", (and if you have a larger boat, webbing handholds) to the luff end of the reefs. These items will make it easier to secure the luff, and a handhold will give you something to grab onto when reefing.

Next comes the question of battens. Your choices are simple—opt for all full-length battens, a mixture of full-length and extended battens, or the more conventional design of all short-length battens. I would exclude the last option from any cruising mainsail. Full-length battens add to the life of a sail and definitely help with sail handling. My recommendation is for a main with two—or for larger sails—three full-length battens up high, and two extended (longer than normal) battens down low. The full-length battens support the roach, and when used with lazy jacks (or any retaining system), can really make things easier when raising or dropping the sail. Omitting the battens throughout the reef area eliminates any chance of them hanging up while reefing, and also allows you to feed shape into the sail when you ease the outhaul. Having full-length battens down low limits your ability to adjust the sail because the stiffness of the battens ends up dictating the shape.

Be sure that the outboard and inboard ends of the batten pockets are reinforced, and that the inboard ends of the extended battens have reinforcing patches. These areas are vulnerable to chafe and distortion and need to be protected. When it comes to batten materials, there's quite a bit of choice for the performance cruiser. I have always been an advocate of simple and strong. Fancy battens often have problems and I speak from experience—I have carbon-fiber battens in my own boat, and while I appreciate the weight savings and stiffness, these are expensive to replace when they break. Tapered epoxy, E-glass battens are all you really need. The tapering helps with sail shape and the E-glass is rugged enough to take most normal wear and tear.

One of the great advances in sail handling over the last few years has been in the area of luff-attachment hardware. The engineering of modern sail designs is intended to handle the compression loads exerted by full-length battens, and these products make raising and lowering the sail easier than ever before. There are many choices out there, so do your homework and find a system that fits your budget and your needs.

Now comes the question of opting for a loose foot or a slide or bolt-rope-attachment. Many older designs still offer a track along the boom, calling for slides to be built into the foot of the mainsail. Unless you are hoping to collect rainwater to fill your tanks while sailing offshore, this old way of doing things should be discarded in favor of a loose-footed mainsail. The loose-footed arrangment is cleaner, simpler, friction free, and it allows for more adjustment to the sail shape. You simply have the sail attached at the tack in a conventional manner, and attach the clew to the outhaul car. The foot round in the sail should drape below the boom, which adds area. For reef lines, you can use your old system, or simply tie the line around the boom at the appropriate location. It's a small change from the old way of doing things, but I am sure that you will find it a big help.

That takes care of the main features, but often it's the less obvious areas of a sail that you need to pay attention to. Remember, the devil is in the details. If you are going offshore, make sure that your sail has double tapes around the edges. This is an area where some sailmakers skimp and you end up paying the price down the road. On the leech between reefs there should be a large second ply of fabric to handle the load and the abuse this area will receive when you reef. Two rows of stitching in all areas of the sail are usually adequate for boats up to 35 feet, but if you are heading offshore or have a bigger boat, then insist on three rows throughout. The same applies to webbing the corner rings or cringles. If you are heading offshore or have a bigger boat, make sure that your corner rings are webbed for extra strength. At AirForce Sails we use Spectra webbing, and sew it down with a special Gore-Tex thread that withstands chafe and never rots in the sun. Lastly, an overhead leech line is necessary on boats where you can't reach the boom. The line runs over a block at the head of the sail and down the luff to a cleat where it is easy to reach and adjust. Double, overhead leech lines are nice on bigger boats, where one acts as a back-up and having two allows you to make adjustments from the windward side—a safety issue as well as a convenience.

As I pointed out before, a great sail is really the sum of its parts. Choose your fabric carefully, know your sailing plans so that you can decide what features you need, pay attention to the details, and make sure that your sailmaker has all the information he or she needs to make you the best possible product. Remember, this is a custom item, and like a great suit, the detail in the tailoring will pay dividends for years to come.

Don Lucier, North Star
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2002 : 22:44:46

Good stuff, Don! I inherited a fairly new main, but I like the idea of full battens up and partial battens down to go with a loose foot. That and a Dutchman flaking system would really be cool! Oh well, never mind...

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

Cruising Direct Sailmaker
Deckhand

Members Avatar

3 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2002 : 09:49:14

Randall and Team,

Hope full I will be able to help you our on the questions that this thread asks.

Battens Full or not?
Your definatly want the top one or two full. It helps with performance, flaking, and durability. Make sure they don't hit the backstay too hard though.
The bottom two are not as important. The boom offers the support that is needed. The only thing they will add is helping with flaking the sail on the boom. They can also be quite heavy.

Loose foot...Good or bad?
Good and here is why: Simplicity. The bolt rope offers no support to the clew. The load on the clew is forward and aft, not beam. The only reason the bolt rope is there is for an "end plate effect", which accounts for less than 2% of your speed.
Lets think about the follow situation. Let say you have a bolt rope or slides and your outhaul breaks. Now the bolt rope or slides are going to rip off and leave you unable to keep sailing. This is also about a $200 repair. Now if you have a loose foot with one high load slug, the out haul breaks, the $15 high load slug breaks and the sail luffs as the boom falls down. You go to the sail maker and have him sew on a new one for $40.
If you question my advise, look at all the america's cup boats, Farr 40's, mumm 30's and most of all the Volvo Ocean race boats, they all have loose foot.

Flattening reefs are a thing of the past. Better ($ and performace)to have one shallow reef and one deep.

Hope this sorts out the debate!

Anthony

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5932 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2002 : 16:40:18

Anthony,

In your previous message you said:

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The bolt rope offers no support to the clew. The load on the clew is forward and aft, not beam. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

That cannot be correct. As the wind blows over the surface of the sail, it pushes on the concave side of the sail and pulls on the convex side of the sail. Thus, the force exerted on the sail is to leeward, and the force vectors follow the shape of the sail. More force is exerted in a forward direction at the leading edge of the sail. The force vectors in the middle of the sail are weaker and point more to leeward. In any event, a force is being exerted to leeward on the sail, and that force puts tension on the bolt rope or slugs along the boom. If you remove the bolt rope or slugs, then the tension that was previously carried by the bolt rope or slugs will be carried entirely by the tack and the clew. If you said the greater percentage of the load is carried by the tack and clew, then I would agree. The fact remains, if the clew of a loose footed mainsail is not given added reinforcement at the clew, it will be weaker than a footed sail and more subject to failure at the clew.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Let say you have a bolt rope or slides and your outhaul breaks. Now the bolt rope or slides are going to rip off <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

That could conceivably happen if the sail was seriously deteriorated, or if you tried to continue sailing with the damaged sail in strong winds, but I have never seen or heard of it happening on a 25' boat, and think it must be extremely rare.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Now if you have a loose foot with one high load slug, the out haul breaks, the $15 high load slug breaks and the sail luffs as the boom falls down. You go to the sail maker and have him sew on a new one for $40.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

That might be true if all that fails is a high load slug, but how much does it cost to rebuild the entire corner of the sail and replace the grommet? I had a grommet rip out of the head of a 3-4 year old North 150% genoa, so I know it happens.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> If you question my advise, look at all the america's cup boats, Farr 40's, mumm 30's and most of all the Volvo Ocean race boats, they all have loose foot.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I know sailmakers are capable of building fast, durable and very expensive loose footed mainsails for the America's Cuppers, but the question that is unresolved in my mind is whether sailmakers are building loose footed mainsails for us little guys, with pressed-in grommets, that are as durable as footed mainsails. I have never owned a loose footed mainsail, and might well like one if I had one, but I have heard owners of such sails complain about their durability.

The fact that they are simpler, cheaper and easier to manufacture doesn't sell me on them unless (1) the savings is being passed on to the consumer, and (2) they are at least as functional and durable as a footed mainsail.

By far, most new mainsails currently being sold still appear to be footed sails. Manufacturers understandably want to sell people the newest, high tech sails, but most sailors don't need that kind of sail.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2002 : 18:55:32

According to an article I found on Sailnet concerning loose-footed mainsails,

"...Essentially, very little support is given to a mainsail by the bolt rope, so you're not losing anything by moving to a loose-footed sail..." 

Here is the entire article.

Loose-Footed Mainsails

Can you give me any guidance regarding the difference in sailing with a loose footed main and one with slides or a bolt rope? I sail a Sonata 26 and I've ordered a new main that the sailmaker is constructing as a loose-footed sail. Someone told me that it will be essential to strengthen the outhaul, and even use a dinghy mainsheet car on the boom because of the concentrated force at the outer end of the boom. What's the straight story?

SailNet responds:
Thanks for your question. Don't fret too much about making the transition from a bolt-rope or slugged-footed mainsail to a loose-footed one because all the kinks have pretty much been worked out and loose-footed mainsails are quite versatile these days.

Essentially, very little support is given to a mainsail by the bolt rope, so you're not losing anything by moving to a loose-footed sail. The loose-footed option gives you a lot more adjustability in sail shaping. And there's really no difference in the sail handling characteristics from one system to another. Also, you don't need a stronger outhaul, even though you'll often see sailmakers put a sliding car on the end of the boom with loose footed mainsails, that's just so that the loaded portion of the sail travels fore and aft more easily. Actually, what's become even more common is the use of strong webbing to strap the clew to the boom. The webbing keeps the clew low enough, but still allows it to slide forward and aft when the outhaul is used.

We personally feel that loose-footed sails are easier to trim because of the improved adjustability. The only real difference to get accustomed to is the foot line (most bolt-rope or slug-footed mainsails don't have a foot line). You can use this adjustment just as you would a foot line on a genoa or jib.

Don Lucier, North Star
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2002 : 19:34:45

After installing a 4:1 outhaul, I started sailing my main loose-footed recently. However, it wasn't designed that way. It's a Rolly Tasker, full batten, with a boltrope on the foot, bought through Sailwarehouse.

Does it make the boat go faster? I don't think I have enough experience to accurately answer. But does it "seem" to do so? Yes. Clearly, the outhaul is now able to significantly shape the foot so that it seems to provide more power in different conditions than it could with the boltrope in the groove. And it seems it has a secondary effect in that it allows the boomvang to have more effect, as well (but maybe that's just me paying more attention to sail shape lately).

But Steve's point that this puts a lot more stress on the clew seems to be absolutely true -- no question about it. I talked with Steve Dair about this concern (Dair Sails is now in partership with Elliot-Pattison Sails). He said the weakest point on the clew of my sail is the original plastic slide -- and that putting an all-metal slide, one longer than the original (to spread the force out somewhat on the slide), would definitely be recommended.

I also noticed the tack has two pieces of webbing sewn in, presumably to spread the stress out radially. However, the clew has only one. Steve Dair said sewing another one at the clew would further beef-up that area, but he seemed less concerned about this, saying slide failures are much more common than grommet failures on mainsails. Regardless, I think I'll have this done also.

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5932 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2002 : 16:55:28

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Flattening reefs are a thing of the past. Better ($ and performace)to have one shallow reef and one deep.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I want to respond to the above remark, because a number of members of the forum have highly recommended flattening reefs in the past.

A flattening reef is really nothing more than a shallow reef. My mainsail has one shallow (flattening) reef and one deep reef. Nothing is outdated if it makes the boat point higher and sail faster. On my boat, when the wind is at about the maximum speed for flying a 150% genoa and the tiller pressure is starting to increase, a flattening reef eases the pressure on the tiller and balances the sailplan. It is much quicker and easier to tuck in and to shake out than a full reef, even for a singlehander.

Last weekend I used that sail combination (150 and mainsail w/ flattening reef) to lee bow a Hobie 33. I crossed the starting line about 1/2 boat length ahead and to leeward of the Hobie 33, and we both trimmed for a beat. About every 30-40 seconds I took a bite to windward (steered a scalloping course to windward), coming closer each time to the Hobie's bow. Each time I took a bite to windward, I told the skipper of the Hobie “I’m coming up.” Each time, the Hobie 33 was forced to pinch up to windward to keep clear of me. After taking three or four bites to windward, I pulled my mainsheet traveller all the way to windward, and the backwind from my mainsail spewed turbulent air onto his mainsail and jib. He finally had to tack off to get clear air. That maneuver is called a "lee bow" maneuver. I didn't think a C-25 could point high enough to lee bow a Hobie 33, a very fast monohull that exists only to race. It couldn't have been done if the sailplan wasn't working well.

If I had used any larger reef, I would have given away too much sail area. The little flattening reef kept Captiva Wind on her feet with good speed, balanced her helm and allowed her to point high.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Randall
Navigator

Members Avatar

123 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2002 : 19:31:33

Dang, Steve, that was a great story, and someday I want to be able to tell anecdotes like that! But honest to God, I don't fully understand what you said. Is there some quick, easy site I can turn to for a lesson on sail pieces/parts and sail trim, especially one geared toward our boats?
I really have never heard terms like "flattening reef" and "shelf footed" before, and can't visualize what you are saying well enough to learn from you. I've been a weekend sailor for ten years, and have read several primers on sailing, but haven't found anything to gently move me up to the next level. They are either very basic or highly technical, and make too big a jump for my simple mind to grasp.

Randall

Edited by - on

Randall
Navigator

Members Avatar

123 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2002 : 20:17:51

Ron,

I called CD yesterday and they still sell new teak hatchboards for $250. The dimensions are 31" high, 30 7/8" wide at the top & 19 5/8" wide at the bottom. I am going to my boat this weekend & will get the precise dimensions. Maybe we can work a deal if your boards are a good fit.

Randall

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5932 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2002 : 23:42:40

Randall,

I never took a survey, but would guess that most cruising sailors don’t know about flattening reefs and shelf-footed mainsails. Those terms are better known among more serious racers. I don’t know of any single particularly good resource for learning terminology, but one good source on sailing and seamanship generally is The Annapolis Book of Seamanship, by John Rousmaniere. A good source on the aerodynamics of sails and sailing is Sail Power, by Wallace Ross. A good source on racing is Sail Like a Champion, by Dennis Connor. If something is being discussed that you don’t understand, there is a pretty good chance that it will be listed somewhere in the index or table of contents of one of those books. Those books can probably be found in some public libraries. Before retiring, I used to have an hour each day for lunch, and for years often spent half of it reading. The books were frequently about sailing, seamanship, racing, exploration, and historically important voyages.

We get into all kinds of discussions on this website. When I post a message here, I try to keep in mind that it will be read by racers and cruisers, from novices to old salts, and try to make it understandable to people with all interests and levels of experience. If any of us uses a term that you don’t understand, ask for an explanation. If you don’t understand it, that means that there are probably others who don’t understand it as well. As far as I can tell, everyone on this website loves sailing, and loves to think and to learn and to talk about sailing and their sailing experiences. Everyone who contributes to the forum brings his/her own knowledge and experience with them, and we learn from each other. For the first time in 21 years, I am finally getting all the annoying little leaks sealed in my boat, thanks to the members of the forum.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2002 : 14:08:36

Steve:

Flattening reef -- <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>It is much quicker and easier to tuck in and to shake out than a full reef<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Why is this so?

The picture in the following link shows a flattening reef (I think). Is the only adjustment made to that yellow line? And no adjustment to the cunningham? No reef lines in the body of the sail?

http://www.int505.org/usa/pix/2000PCC-14.jpg

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

Edited by - RichardG on 10/03/2002 14:18:57

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2002 : 17:31:56

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

I never took a survey, but would guess that most cruising sailors don’t know about flattening reefs and shelf-footed mainsails.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Steve,

I've been racing for a good 9 years now on some fairly big PHRF boats and to be honest, I never heard about it until I sailed with you at the nationals.
Over the past week I did have a discussion with a skipper about it we should reef or not etc...to make this story short, I asked him if a flattening reef would help and he felt that something like that would leave way too much cloth up. This of course is his opinion regarding his boat and his square footage of sail area... I realize that all conditions warrant different sail compliments. I have to believe that the mainstream moved away from the flattening reef (and or shelf foot) for a reason. I am not trying to start an arguement here, just trying to find out why...I have a few preliminary ideas, but plan on talking to a few people this weekend at the Regatta to see what gives.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Now, Duane, re-think that. When a mainsail has a bolt-roped foot, the wind blows on the fabric of the sail and the stress is spread all along the foot of the sail. Much of the stress is carried by the bolt rope.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Yeah, that's what I thought too...but after a long discussion with the sailmaker, (which I am not qualified to repeat (partly because I don't remember all of the conversation) I found differently...I am going to send an email to someone who will hopefully answer this question and I will post it here...

DW

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d603b3127cce9f858f0ef3ef0000001010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.