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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2009 : 11:03:22

Well now I will ignore my own advice and jump back in.

John (Peregrine) this message is to you, not about you. I have read the C25 Observer blogs. I find them a mix of legitimate views along with some unneeded personal attacks.

John, as I see it you object to the demise of a printed bulletin, the focus of the Association on this online forum, and the demise of focus on regional activities and racing. OK, those are legitimate points - even if I don't agree with them, and I don't.

John you are entitled to your own view. I don't hear anyone questioning that. Looking through the forum now I find plenty of helpful posts that you have made since coming back. You have things to share that will help other sailors. But all of the good stuff gets overwhelmed when you go negative.

Do yourself and the Association a good deed. Delete the blog. Join us in our ongoing community and contribute your experience and skills to it. We'll all be the better for it.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2009 : 13:15:02

OK, I tried to stay out of this.

I didn't read the thread that was locked/deleted after the reading the initial post. Frankly, it didn't interest me. I also didn't have any interest in re-opening issues that had gone all but gone away.

Now, to my amazement, I find myself coming to the defense of our fellow-member Pereigrine, AKA John G aka the "Observer.

We shouldn't be surprised that his "version of history" and others' versions may not be in alignment. This has always been the core of this dissent.

I strongly supported the idea of banning him from this forum last year during the vitriolic fervor that was present. I strongly opposed his election to a leadership position. I posited the question of him even being allowed on the forum since he was previously ejected. I hoped that the board of officers made a conscious decision to allow his return but I'd make a small wager that no conscious decision was made but rather his ejection simply stopped being enforced.

When I read this thread, I assumed that I must have missed something pretty nasty but haven't seen it. I assume that the comments made against John here are based on something in that other thread. So, I went to the "blog" and noticed that he had not, prior to today, made any commments about our association in that blog since last fall -- September 29, 2008 to be precise. That was about the same time that he became a positive contributor to this forum.

It was my thought then that he would be allowed to participate in the forum as long as his contributions were positve. I looked at this as an opportunity to "prove himself" even though none of the rest of us has ever had to do that.

Dave Robbins was quite right when he said:<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">... Change is hard to swallow, most of us don't like it. One problem in my opinion is the Observer is having is trouble with the fact that communication is moving from the written page to the cyber world.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yes, John does lament the inevitable death (IMHO) of the Mainsheet. That the magazine is being replaced by electronic media is, for him, a bad thing. It was and is very important to him. Yes, he has found the need to blame someone (or several someones) for that issue. Yes, he has chosen to voice his remorse over that loss by attacking others. But, by allowing him back into the community that is this forum, we have given what would amount to forgiveness.

I agree with our Commodore. I have seen nothing here that constitutes personal attack.

Edited by - John Russell on 04/03/2009 13:18:14

Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2009 : 02:51:19

IMHO Frank, Duane, and Steve dont own a 25 anymore. I respect what John has done to voice his thoughts about the monthly flyer, there is no way for members without a computer and the internet to vote, or read the news. By the time one would get the mainsheet it's old news. I also have views about how the board went about contacting WYC, and trying to get more Capri 25 owners involved with this association. I was a very active member trying to get the Capri 25 boats into the association, I helped fellow members at our club go to nationals last year to show up and not be able to race thier Capri 25 in our Nationals. I understand that the only Capri 25 there was thier boat, I made a real fool out of myself talking them to put thier boat on the trailer travel 150 miles for nothing.

Back to work

Edited by - on

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2009 : 03:26:54

Diplomacy has never been my forte, nor my want.
I am grateful that cooler voices have spoken up to mitigate my heat.
It does seem that a dialogue needs to be engaged in that has at its aim to involve ALL the PAYING members in creating a vibrant and informative "International Association".
But let me be clear, any and all efforts to reduce the participation of any of the PAYING members needs to be strenuously opposed.

Edited by - Peregrine on 04/04/2009 03:30:44

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2009 : 07:04:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Peregrine
 Diplomacy has never been my forte, nor my want.
I am grateful that cooler voices have spoken up to mitigate my heat.
It does seem that a dialogue needs to be engaged in that has at its aim to involve ALL the PAYING members in creating a vibrant and informative "International Association".
But let me be clear, any and all efforts to reduce the participation of any of the PAYING members needs to be strenuously opposed. 
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Speaking as a PAYING member of the Association, John, and as one who has been a PAYING member far longer than you, and who has contributed far more to the association than you can ever hope to contribute, your $22. doesn't give you an unqualified right to attack and disrupt the association and its members from within as well as from without, or to pit the members against each other. You are receiving some measured support from fair-minded people who don't know you as we do, but, in time, as you reveal yourself to them, that support will evaporate. When that happens, your $22. won't stand in the way of a remedy. If the members decide to give you a chance to prove yourself, you should take it.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2009 : 08:00:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Capri25
 IMHO Frank, Duane, and Steve don't own a 25 anymore.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Many of our distinguished members don't own a 25 anymore. What's your point?


"Change is the law of life. And those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future." - John F Kennedy

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2009 : 09:20:41

Do we have a count on how many paying members are not on line? Do we make every effort to keep them informed and involved?

Edited by - on

Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2009 : 09:25:59

I have to admit, I did not know of the "history" behind this thread. It is all new to me. It has sparked my interest and the thread should be allowed to continue. It has brought out the best and the worst in us.

Just choose your words wisely my friends. Others are also listening.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2009 : 11:18:41

"It does seem that a dialogue needs to be engaged in that has at its aim to involve ALL the PAYING members in creating a vibrant and informative "International Association".

Fair enough. So, John, how does one go about doing that? We are in the era of high postal rates and nearly every organization I know of is trying to go "paperless." Most of these organizations have turned to the Internet and e-mail to provide their communications. Even my yacht club and my church are going to e-mail and the web instead of printed materials. Heck, even you are using a web blog.

You are right that this move online may leave some people out, although I note we have people from their 20's to their 70's actively participating in this forum. But, what would you recommend to reach out and include those members who you feel are under-served? How would you propose that we do that? I bet everyone here is open to ideas to expand the membership and value of this Association.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 04/04/2009 11:20:41

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2009 : 11:47:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DaveR
 Do we have a count on how many paying members are not on line? Do we make every effort to keep them informed and involved?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">What I can report is that 572 registered users have posted to the forums in the past 365 days. Some are paid, some not--I have no way of telling. We know many more are lurking without posting, but I can't tell how many... What's our paid membership count?

The question of governance, in particular, elections, has been raised. IMHO, this is where the shift to the forum has been the most valuable. Newsletters and magazines are one-way communication--they are not opportunities for members to get to know each other. (Not that most of us would recognize each other on the street, but...) If I were just receiving Telltale in the mail, how would I know who to vote for? Who would even vote? While I don't necessarily support the idea, I can imagine why voting was once at the National Regatta--that was the only place where active members got together, hopefully from all parts of the country, and got to know about each other. The same is done in the Long Island Sound Catalina Association, and many others.

As this forum has developed, the association has taken leaps and bounds forward in camaraderie and mutual support, engaging hundreds, not dozens, of members as never before. As one who has counted the votes recently, I can say that the on-line vote to paper ballot count was in the neighborhood of 75-2. I consider this a healthy trend, not a disenfranchisement. And I'd like to think our voters know a little about who the candidates are, and that the list of potential candidates is unlimited, as it is now. That's where good governance starts. Open debates about things like dues, publications, regattas, and forum access, are possible on this scale only via the internet. This is participatory democracy at its best.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 04/04/2009 11:57:49

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2009 : 13:11:50

Dave, As the Treasurer, I can report we have approximately 600 paid members. There are a few members who do not provide an email address. Whether it is due to wanting to protect their privacy or not having one, I cant say.
Lets not forget this Association is a web based member organization.

Lets also not forget two of the objectives of this group is 1:The promotion of the enjoyment of ownership and 2:The promotion of cruising and social activities that encourage fellowship amongst members.

As a member for over 2 1/2 years, I feel after reading these current and as well as previous older posts, speaking as a member and not as an officer, that we have lost sight of these objectives. This has nothing to do with free speech. Don't get me wrong, I believe in healthy discussions, as I have been involved in some as well but the point they are no longer healthy and become prejudicial or injurious to this great Association, I become not only fearful but saddened.

Fearful in that I hope we do not destroy or diminish what we are attempting to accomplish with this group, including the loss of members, paid or otherwise- as all members are valuable- and saddened in that one of the reasons I so much loved sailing is that the individuals who participated were genuinely honorable individuals.

I believe every member here has much to offer. Lets offer the best of what we have. Of all groups I have participated in, Sailors rank the highest in regards to respect. This includes not only one another but this this Association as well.

Steve A, member first

Edited by - on

Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2009 : 13:23:55

Can I offer several suggestions and observations (oops!) ? Why not include a new heading in the forums such as "Official business" or Association business" where topics such as this one could be discussed and recorded. It could be in the members only section.

Another idea and I'm sure this forum software handles this is a marker next to our names to show that we are dues paying members. This is done in many forums I belong to and is common and of little controversy. It helps promote memberships also. It does show that the person supports the website and is willing to commit to having it continue.

As for election of officers as of with many volunteer organizations and boards (and I've belonged to many) there is a real problem in finding people who will serve. It sometimes becomes a matter of convincing current officers to "stay on" and thus continuing there ideas. On the other hand, it also allows for "outsiders" and fringe individuals (please, this is just an example - no reference to anyone) to slip on to a board and disrupt the direction of the organization. Such is the nature of any volunteer group trying to do what's right but getting flack from members who would never take on a position. It is a thankless job sometimes and often causes burnout and disappointment.

The only way I see to get over such obstacles is to open up the forum to discussion but to do it in a structured civil way (no name calling please) and to ask the membership the directions they want you to lead this organization. That does not mean "rule by committee" as this is another setback to any organization. Those elected should have the power to make the decisions they feel are right, but only after getting a feel on how the body wants to go. If the members don't like your direction and the way you serve, they vote you out. They don't call names and cause insurrection within the group. Insurrection should be dealt with by suspension as this threads topic seems to suggest happened with the chance to come back after a time.

"You know what they ought to do?" I hear this all the time. We ought to have a drive at the end of the year to get people to join "They". People should have the right to participate in the government of the organization, but they also should respect those already serving. Like it or not, those that have volunteered their time and effort to the organization should have the right to direct that organization in the way they feel is fitting. Those serving do not have the right to become "old cronies" or be part of some "good ol boy" network and close their ears to the members of the organization.

Lastly, if you have a paid up membership, you can vote for offfices or run for an office - no exceptions.

Edited by - Turk on 04/04/2009 13:25:38

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2009 : 14:00:27

Turk, no harm in offering suggestions or observations. Its appreciated.
We do have an Association Business forum at the very top of all forums. It was meant to discuss non sailing issues. It was purposely not placed in the Assn. Members Area only as members, not officers, felt everyone should have a say, paid member or not.
Many members have suggested placing some kind of designation by the name indicating whether they are a member or not. Due to the constraints of this software, that task would almost be impossible.
We and by that I mean Paul Alcock, is developing software, available in the near future, to allow us to do things we have been restricted to by this software. I do agree paid members should be show by some type of designation to show if anything, their support for this Association.
Now like they say in that burger commercial, "Don't bother me, I am going sailing."

Steve A

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2009 : 15:42:24

Another observation about our statistics... There have been comments in the past about our declining membership over the past many years... I think we need to accept that this is part of the life-cycles of boats. Between 1976 and 1991 (15 years) over 6,000 C-25s were built. Every initial buyer was given a free membership to the association for the first year, as I recall, and some chose to continue those memberships. When a C-25 changed hands, no such automatic membership went with it. (Capri 25s weren't involved in this at the time, and there are only a few hundred of them, so I won't count them in this "analysis".)

Then from 1994 to present (also 15 years), not quite 1,000 C-250s have been built--a much smaller number over the same number of years. Automatic memberships came with them, too, and the attrition in memberships is probably similar, but obviously the rate of new members and thereby potential longer-term members due to new purchases has declined dramatically.

I've known several buyers of used C-25s who knew nothing of this association and voiced little or no interest in pursuing it--they had a big, inexpensive day-sailor that they enjoyed, but it was not their passion. Some might be lurking here, but many are not and don't care to. So, as these boats turn over, attrition is a fact of life.

On the flip side (dating myself), many including me have voiced that these forums were a key factor in our decision to buy C-25s and C-250s. Hopefully the same is becoming true for the Capri. That's a ratio of paid memberships to hulls built of about 8.6%. I don't know how that compares to that of, say, the C-22, but I suspect it's actually pretty good. And I believe it's that good because of this extraordinary on-line community.

Carry on!

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2009 : 18:29:46

Interesting "observations" David. I wonder though if the decline in building 25 foot boats isn`t simply due to the trend that people buy bigger boats these days. Please adjust my numbers here because I'm just going from memory, but in the 70's weren't most sailboats smaller than 30-32 feet? Now a 35-40 foot sailboat is considered the norm?

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2009 : 19:32:40

Regardless of what John posts on his own free speech blog (I don't read it), I think he has behaved well on the forum. The forum is our concern, a personal blog is not. In 5 minutes I have come into and left this thread. Negative enclaves build more easily than positives.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 04/05/2009 : 06:21:49

I was doing some random thinking while offshore yesterday and this thread came to mind. Why does anyone volunteer or offer themselves up for public service anymore? It is insane what the era of instant messaging can do to those who are trying to do the right thing. Think about it. Run for political office and every unpaid parking ticket will turn up. (Ironically - Obama lived less than 2 blocks away from me while he was in Harvard. I only found out after his campaign paid his parking tickets that were like a decade old or whatever.) Every affair, every goof, indeed every word is analyzed and is critiqued by the masses.

As a former non profit organization leader myself, I can understand the time commitment et al. But when you throw in the possible drawbacks to leadership that come with today's anonymous internet world and suddenly everything becomes a liability. Google Dave Bristle and this Forum shows up and probably a deeper search will turn up C25 Observer's diatribe. If Dave were applying for a job I could easily do a search and potentially my decision could be impacted by an internet troll because the troll disagreed with decisions made while in office. Why take the risk? Why bother?

It's a sailing organization, not the G8. Get a grip and respect the commitment of the officers and respect that decisions made whether right or wrong are better than not doing anything.

sten

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 04/05/2009 : 12:16:43

In an earlier "version" of this thread, there was a "Long History" segment that discussed among other things what positions in your organization were compensated. We, too, have discussed that. Could you PM me with that older discussion, I'd be very interested. Thanks,

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 04/05/2009 : 13:03:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stu Jackson C34
 In an earlier "version" of this thread, there was a "Long History" segment that discussed among other things what positions in your organization were compensated. We, too, have discussed that. Could you PM me with that older discussion, I'd be very interested. Thanks,
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Stu, I believe the only position that has ever been compensated by the association was our treasurer. In the early days of the association (before the internet), we had considerable difficulty finding officers, and the most indispensible officer at the time was the treasurer, who not only paid our bills, but also received all dues and memberships and kept all those records. I offered the wife of one of our members $500. per year to take care of those duties, which she did for quite a few years thereafter, and she did it exceptionally well. To the best of my knowledge, we have never had any other regular employees, although we might have hired someone on contract to perform a one-time service, such as working on our website.

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 04/05/2009 : 13:34:51

Stu, re compensation, the Association has an administrative manager who is paid. LuAnn now primarily sends out renewal notices to members among other things. Prior to me, the treasurer was paid a nominal fee.
I guess I should clarify that, I am an unpaid volunteer. No officers are paid.
Any paid member is free to review in our monthly minutes, located in the Assn. Members Area, the Treasurer's Report of income and expenses.
Steve A, Treasurer

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 04/05/2009 : 13:53:34

Lu Ann is the paid association membership secretary and bookeeper. She has been doing this for as long as I remember. After JB Manley left (bought a larger boat) we kept him on as paid bookeeper - as I recall $50/month. He resigned this paid position and just this year we moved it to Lu Ann. She does the same service for many of the other Catalina Associations. You can find the amounts paid in the on line Tell Tales.

One time we paid about $3000 for this current web site upgrade to a web developer/contractor. An expenditure voted for and approved by the officers at the time.

No elected officers nor staff receive compensation.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/05/2009 : 14:56:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 ...If Dave were applying for a job I could easily do a search and potentially my decision could be impacted by an internet troll because the troll disagreed with decisions made while in office...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...and I wasn't even "in office"--my crime was defending those who did serve--and not just on the forum (although my attempt at back-door diplomacy was a miserable failure, as evidenced by Sten's reference).

On a happier note, the "long history" of this association, for most of us, consisted of the beginning of a vibrant C-25 community under trailersailor.com, followed by a full-blown web presence on our own site, and now a multi-dimensional community, including an "Alumni Lounge", open-to-all officers' meetings, and more good things on the drawing board--all made possible by the net. Folks like Arlyn, Duane, and Paul did the heavy lifting to make this happen, enabled by our past and present Commodores, VCs, Treasurers, and Secretaries. Nothing before that matters--there's no going back to whatever it might have been as long as people like these are willing to step up. Transparency and democracy are now established for anyone with even a casual interest in the association.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 04/05/2009 : 15:24:54

I'm incensed! I just read Grizondi's diatribes on his "observer". The guy is a propagandist at least, an anarchist at worst, and generally a cantankerous, unlikable person. He has not only attempted to drive a wedge in our forum, he has slandered our members and the Assoc to other organizations - Edgewater Yacht Club, Trailer Sailors, etc. In the real world he would have been sued by now. In cyber world we're discussing his right to infiltrate our discussions and twist them out of proportion. In my opinion he is a nut case. Let's get him out of here and be diligent in keeping him out.

Edited by - aeckhart on 04/05/2009 15:25:46

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 04/05/2009 : 19:39:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by aeckhart
 In the real world he would have been sued by now.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

There is no concept such as the "virtual" world (non-real world) as far as the legal system is concerned. The Internet is just another media. If you attack a private person's reputation causing him financial (or other) harm then the attacker is liable. It is unfortunate that certain individuals believe they have some sort of protection being on the "internet" that allows them to attack another individual. Small claims court is just for such situations and quite easy to push through. You can bet your life that if someone on a forum would make me loose or miss a job/financial opportunity that I would sue his/her pants off. Pretty easy when considering that I would have written proof on a public media.

Edited by - on

Breezy Cat
1st Mate

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38 Posts

Response Posted - 04/05/2009 : 20:23:12

Aeckhart wrote;
“he has slandered our members”

Aeckhart needs to review or just learn the law.

“In common law jurisdictions, slander refers to a malicious, false and defamatory spoken statement or report, while libel refers to any other form of communication such as written words or images.”

Steve Blackburn correctly wrote;
“If you attack a private person's reputation causing him financial (or other) harm then the attacker is liable.”

Neither slander nor libel is evident here.
These attacks against John G- are unfounded and violate forum rules.

Edited by - on

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