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Wheel helms

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AADIVER
Admiral

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USA
966 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/16/2009 : 23:18:47

It is a proven fact that a tiller helm is most effective on sloops under 40 feet LOA rather than a wheel helm. Would someone give me one reasonable reason why a wheel helm would be necessary or preferable to a tiller helm on a 25 or a 250 or a Capri?

Frank Farmer
Long Beach, CA
aa.diver@verizon.net
http://mysite.verizon.net/aa.diver

PRETTY PENNY
'01 C-250 WK, Hull #558

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2009 : 05:30:25

Wondered where you were Frank.

As a Wheely, the answer is simple... Admiral is more comfortable with the wheel.

However there are other pros and cons.

Pros: Provides a place to mount the GPS, Compass, Wind, Depth, Speed data gauges. And handy hold when going gets rough. Easy lock system
Cons: Complexity, Space in the cockpit, and frowns from the 'Wheels don't belong on Li'l boats! crowd.

Paul

Edited by - britinusa on 11/17/2009 05:31:15

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2009 : 05:35:30

Who "proved" that "fact", especially with regard to "under 40 feet"? I've sailed a C-30 with a tiller--most boats that size and larger go with a wheel, for a variety of reasons, so you've got plenty of people who will dispute your "fact". That aside...

On the C-250, the wheel can be viewed as leaving more usable space in the cockpit while under way. With the C-25's narrower cockpit, it's more of an obstacle. The Capri 25 is a one-design, so that's that. Another arguable advantage is having a binnacle to mount instruments where they are right under the skipper's nose--not to mention a few beverage holders... A disadvantage is that an autopilot will be more expensive and complicated.

Then there's the "advantage" of the boat turning where a novice thinks it should, rather than in the opposite direction.

The "most effective" is what works best for a particular owner in a particular cockpit in a particular hull with a rudder in a particular location. For me, it was the tiller--now it's a wheel...
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Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/17/2009 07:14:16

piseas
Former Treasurer

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Response Posted - 11/17/2009 : 08:35:46

Frank, nice to hear from you!

The only reasons for me have been mentioned by Paul & Dave:
1. The Admiral
2. A novice turning where he thinks it should turn.
Other than than, maybe having a wheel is more of a status symbol-"I own a real yacht". I am just speculating here as I have and love the tiller and would hate to give it up- if I got a larger boat.

I dont remember if I mentioned this before but after gone without sailing for 20 years and before buying PiSeasII, I went out in several 30+ft/ers with wheels. I kept turning in opposite direction when at the helm. I kept saying to everyone cuz I felt kinda dumb, "I only have sailed with a tiller!"

Steve A

Edited by - on

aeckhart
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1709 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2009 : 10:04:48

An acquaintance in our club has a Santa Cruz 40....with tiller.

I believe an often stated reason to prefer a tiller over a wheel is the "feel" you get with a tiller. The Ferrari versus Cadilac analogy. I've sailed a 40' Beneteau with wheel and can vouch for the fact that you have a difficult time feeling what the boat is doing in relation to wind and wave versus my C25 in which you can definatley feel what the boat is doing.

I think I would prefer a wheel if cruising. If racing I like the tiller.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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3285 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2009 : 10:08:52

Dave - I've NEVER seen a boat with a rear view mirror.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 11/17/2009 : 14:14:49

Frank, easy answer to this one. The prime reason for wheels over tillers is too much feel from a tiller.

That will be hard, if not impossible of being understood by the small boat sailor who has never cruised. The prime reasons for a wheel is to gain helm leverage over that obtainable by a tiller. They are not seen as often on small boats because small boats simply don't suffer the helm torque and small boats are not generally used as cruisers so arm endurance doesn't come into play but it is a huge issue for a cruiser.

Also, helming is an important way to get standing exercise on a sailboat when cruising, so a wheel saves both over use of the arms and under use of the legs, especially true on a boat that doesn't have standing head room.

And... 25 foot boats are large enough to cruise on.

Others have pointed out several other valid reasons to choose a wheel.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 11/17/2009 : 14:26:09

If you go to Jessica Watson's site, she appears to be standing at a wheel although you can't really make out the wheel in the photo. But, if you look into the site a little further, you'll see that the design drawings of the boat show a tiller. I'm not sure what all that means other than to say the designer of this obviously blue water cruiser thinks a tiller to be the way to go with, maybe, a wheel as an option.

I'm thinkig that most cruisers actually spend little time at the helm while letting an "electronic helmsman" maintain the course.

Edited by - on

piseas
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Response Posted - 11/17/2009 : 14:38:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 Dave - I've NEVER seen a boat with a rear view mirror.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Jim, I got a bimini installed a few months ago and was looking for one of those folding mirrors for cars you can attach on a visor/bimini. Then I can stop looking over my shoulder!

Steve A

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5376 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2009 : 15:24:24

When I put up the bimini, I need a mirror to see the windex! I've craned my neck way too often to see it without one. Maybe I have to mount it on the cabin top.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2009 : 16:00:53

I used a wide-angle rear-view mirror as a kid when towing skiers, even though I always had a spotter. On a crowded weekend day with traffic going up and down the Mystic River, that one helps just like your car mirror does on I-5.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 11/17/2009 : 20:20:20

Hey John,

I wasn't thinking of circumnavigation cruising when making my comments but rather from my own cruising experience. A circumnavigator will likely have a wind steering system and they don't hook into wheel steering easily if at all. Coastal cruisers on the other hand probably rarely use wind steering systems and must rely on a system that will keep a boat on a known safe rhumb line so are free to use either wheel or tiller.

Edited by - on

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2009 : 21:47:41

When the J-35 first came out I raced on "Rolling Thunder" out of South Port Conn.
Bill had ordered the boat with a wheel, he had only owned racer cruisers before and they all had wheels.
We managed dead last for a season no matter what we did. We finally figured out that no one else had a wheel.
Reason?
The weight in the stern and the feel of the boat in your hand.
Once the wheel was gone we started to place and be competitive.
A C-25 or 250 already has an engine hanging off the stern adding a wheel will weight the stern down more.
And giving up the feel of the rudder that is directly attached to your hand is IMO a huge mistake.
For bigger boats that cruise I can see wanting a wheel but if you race or just want to have the fun of going fast stick with a tiller for as long (pun) as possible.

Edited by - Peregrine on 11/17/2009 21:53:49

piseas
Former Treasurer

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Response Posted - 11/18/2009 : 13:55:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 When I put up the bimini, I need a mirror to see the windex! I've craned my neck way too often to see it without one. Maybe I have to mount it on the cabin top.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Bruce, I put 2 windows in my bimini for that exact reason. You can kinda see the flap in the pic below as they are just above the catbird seats. I just roll up the pieces of sunbrella and velco them down. I replace when I return. I love them.
Steve A

Edited by - piseas on 11/18/2009 14:03:22

Even Chance
Captain

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Response Posted - 11/18/2009 : 15:20:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Arlyn Stewart
 Hey John,

A circumnavigator will likely have a wind steering system and they don't hook into wheel steering easily if at all.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Arlyn, I thought that many wind steering systems use a separate trim tab to make course corrections -- the whole system (e.g. Cape Horn) is independent of the regular steering system. I don't think it makes any difference whether you have a tiller or wheel -- the rudder just needs to be locked for the self-steerer to work correctly.

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
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1913 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2009 : 16:43:31

Woohoo Frank! Once you go wheel you wont go back!

Unless you want more room in the cockpit

Edited by - on

ruachwrights
Captain

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USA
258 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2009 : 20:24:57

We have a wheel on our boat and I have become quite used to it. I was born with a flat you know what and it just hurts to sit. When I used to sail with tillered boats I squished a few kids in a rapid maneuvers in sudden gusts and that just hasn't happened with a wheel.

As for the rule that anything below 40' should not have a wheel is just crazy. I sailed a new Catalina 350 all through the summer of 2008 on Buzzards bay and I just can't imagine having to handle the torque of sailing in 4' chop all day long with a tiller especially on a boat that size. 35' is allot of boat especially after sailing a 25' one all this year.

Vern

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2009 : 13:46:23

Can wheel steered C25/250's pivot on their keels?

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2009 : 14:10:23

What I found sailing on a C250 with a wheel compared to my C25 tiller is that the wheel won't put the rudder nearly as far over. You can't turn as sharp with a 250 wheel.

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DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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2015 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2009 : 15:07:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> When I put up the bimini, I need a mirror to see the windex! I've craned my neck way too often to see it without one. Maybe I have to mount it on the cabin top. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I bet that's why the PO of Bamboo mounted my bimini so far forward. But I like it and it covers the companionway when it rains. Still would like to put it on tracks ...........

Edited by - on

Deric
Captain

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408 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2009 : 18:29:05

I enjoyed the tiller as part of my learning how to sail experience. It allowed me to sense, and feel the conditions of the water under different wind conditions, as well as set up tuning of the sails. I have used the tiller when under sail as one part of monitoring of how tuned the boat is.

For example, when the boat is well tuned, the is very little pressure on the tiller, if my set up is off a little bit, I can feel it.

I am sure other sailors would agree based on their experience.

Best,
Deric

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2009 : 18:52:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DaveR
 [quote]I bet that's why the PO of Bamboo mounted my bimini so far forward...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That, or to let the boom swing without the mainsheet hanging up. That's about the normal position on a C-25 (unless you rig mid-boom sheeting so you can put the bimini behind it).

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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4479 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2009 : 20:56:33

When we were looking to move up from our San Juan 21 (tiller), I really wanted to find a boat with a wheel, I just liked the idea. I'd raced on boats with both, and we seemed to do well on all three boats (Capri 25, J-92, both tillered, & a Swan 46). I wasn't all that interested in racing again, but I don't recall thinking beyond wanting a wheel. Well, SL has a tiller, and I like it (and better, Rita's learning to drive with it), but eventually I want a larger boat for cruising, and it's going to have a wheel.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

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Response Posted - 11/20/2009 : 01:15:21

DaveR, you really should ease your backstay when you're not sailing, or even when you're sailing and the wind isn't up. It lets the rig rest.

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Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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Response Posted - 11/20/2009 : 11:14:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Deric
 
For example, when the boat is well tuned, the is very little pressure on the tiller, if my set up is off a little bit, I can feel it.

I am sure other sailors would agree based on their experience.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I usually get a kick out of these wheel / tiller conversations. Most of the time the respondents who have not sailed the other are proponents of what they have. It's kinda like asking a sailor what the best boat is: invariably, it is the boat he currently owns!

I feel that way too, now that we've owned Aquavite for as long as we'd owned Capricorn Two - 12 years each with a C22 before these.

But in this case, fellas, I simply must disagree on this "sensitivity" claim, which based on my personal experience, is a completely bogus point of view. Again, that's my personal input, not fact or from a measurable database.

Here's why:

After a few years with "Dosgoats" (our nickname for our C25) I rigged up John Letcher's mainsheet to tiller self steering gear. I later installed a Navico tiller pilot, the small powered model (more like the AH 1000 compared to the 2000 which some folks installed because it was more powerful). When we purchased our 1986 C34 in 1998, she came with an Autohelm 3000, and when that died I replaced it with one of the last Autohelm ST3000 that were ever made.

In ALL cases, especially with the mainsheet to tiller self-steering, the things that make ANY steering method work under sail are only two things: THE BALANCE OF THE SAILS and GOOD SAIL TRIM.

That means reefing early and often (like voting!

) and trimming the sails properly with the appropriate sail controls: outhaul, traveler, cunningham, vang, etc.

In fact, the way I learned proper sail trim, in addition to all the books I read, was extensive single handed sailing. When the sail trim was right, regardless of which method of steering assistance was employed, the three Catalina boats I have owned will track like freight trains on the rails, much like one would expect a full keeled boat to behave, rather than our spade rudders and short but deep keels.

Most of this self steering is accomplished sailing upwind, from close hauled to maybe a beam reach, after which point both the Letcher and the electric autopilots lose their ability to steer well.

The point is that neither a tiller or a wheel is "better."

When Aquavite is "tracking" properly, the wheel has positioned itself so that the RUDDER has balanced out with the sail plan and the boat is BALANCED. The same was true of Goats with the Letcher or the tiller pilot.

Both the wheel and the tiller perform one function only: to position the rudder.

So, perhaps the issue is NOT which is better. Because I can tell you that when I sit behind, to the side of, or even in front of my wheel, I can FEEL the behavior of the boat under sail just as well as I could with my tiller. Sometimes I even play around a bit and use the lower spokes of the wheel which behaves just like a, you guessed it, tiller!

What I call that is being in THE GROOVE. Once you are "there" minimal effort should be required to make minute adjustments to the rudder position, and it just doesn't make any difference whether it's done with a wheel or a tiller.

I enjoy being able to stand when sailing with the wheel. But actually I've installed the autopilot on the coaming just in line with the wheel, which frees me from being a slave to have to be behind the wheel all the time, and most of the time I'm sitting in the cockpit forward of the wheel. When on 'Goats I'd stand with the tiller between my knees when I got tired of sitting or when docking.

But it seems simple to me: neither is better.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 11/20/2009 : 12:10:18

"Dosgoats"...too funny.

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