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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Wheel helms

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Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2009 : 13:51:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottg
 "Dosgoats"...too funny.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

David, here's the long version:

Once upon a time, we had a Catalina 25 named Capricorn Two. On the transom the previous owner had had an "artiste" draw two capricorns butting heads. The artistry left a little (well, a lot) to be desired and it just looked like two goats butting heads. When we get down to the boat we usually say "Hi," to the boat, but it was a mouthful to say "Hi, Capricorn Two," and anything shorter made no sense. We started saying, "Hi, 'goats."

About that time email started and we were looking for one different than a simple stujackson at aol dott com. We said "Hmm, two goats," but that didn't work for an email address either. But then we tumbled onto 'dos' as in two, not disk operating system!. So, Dosgoats
came from the two ugly capricorns on the transom of our boat. BTW, the 1981 boat was sold in 1998 to a nice guy and his wife who still keep it floating, a few slips away from where we owned her for 12 years, just down in the next marina from where we keep our 1986 C34 Aquavite. We now say "Hi, 'vite," when we get to the boat, much easier!

And that's the rest of the story......

As for the name Aquavite, Cory just made it up. Aqua as in water, and vite is fast in French. Seems to apply some of the time!

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 11/20/2009 13:51:39

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2009 : 14:48:11

I was thinking of Aquavit.

Stu, as for being in your "groove", are you saying you have a neutral (rather than weather) helm? I have always preferred a light weather helm for feel and for safety--I literally don't like the sort of fluttery feel of a neutral helm--I like a little pressure, but that's just me. And a professional racer once told me that moderate weather helm makes a boat faster... Since it's a bit counterintuitive, I've noodled a lot since then to come up with my own theory as to why--it created quite a debate here some years ago...

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/20/2009 14:59:22

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2009 : 16:39:22

I was just amused, one of the small villages on Terciera in the Azores where I used to live was named "Dos Cabritos" (actually I think Dos was spelled differently, but I'm drawing a blank, been working for three weeks straight and I'm a bit stupid in the head right now). Anyway it meant "two goats" in Portuguese.

I don't like the flutter of a perfectly balanced helm either, it feels like the boat's about to do something scary to me.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2009 : 00:33:37

Dave, no, the GROOVE has nothing to do with helm. Of course the boat has weather helm. When the sails are set properly we have anywhere from 5 degrees to 15 degrees (one to two wheel spokes) of weather helm. The GROOVE is when the boat tracks properly, has nothing to do with weather helm.

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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621 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2009 : 05:23:02

Stu, I agree with everything you say about wheels and tillers being equal when the sails are trimmed correctly and the boat is in the groove. With the possible exception of getting into the groove. Especially in light air, where the "feel" of the tiller comes in and can guide you in trimming the sails to get you to the "sweet spot" in the groove. Of course, this still only applies to smaller,lighter, boats. The whole point of a wheel is to gain mechanical advantage when boat size (and mass) become too great to allow for a reasonable length tiller to leverage the rudder against the inertial forces involved with steering a heavier boat; especially in heavy,following seas.
I also like to stand up sometimes when I steer (especially when docking) and my favorite position is to stand on the settee holding on to the backstay and steering with my bare foot on the tiller.

Edited by - on

Deric
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2009 : 11:29:25

My experience sailing boats with tillers or wheels has led me to believe that a tiller provides me more feedback as to what is happening. Perhaps it is because there is less mechanical parts between the tiller and the rudder.

Nonetheless, my old 78 CAT had a tiller, my new boat has a wheel. I appreciate the value each offers.

Someone mentioned how much easier it is for novice to steer a boat with a wheel rather than the tiller because of the reverse direction a tiller must be to steer: port to turn starboard as an example. I enjoy introducing non sailors to sailing, and have often observed the struggle some of the newbies have when learning how to steer the boat. In most cases it is fun for them, once in a while someone gives up and hands the tiller to someone else.

Best,
Deric

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2009 : 12:09:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> DaveR, you really should ease your backstay when you're not sailing, or even when you're sailing and the wind isn't up. It lets the rig rest. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks for the tip Brooke, I'll do it. I found that raking the mast back a bit really helps the wing keel point.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2009 : 19:52:20

And in my opinion, the tiller of the C-25 is almost awkwardly long, hence the unending debate

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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1771 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2009 : 06:55:14

For those with wheels, try to steer with the emergency tiller after the cable to the quadrant breaks - it is not easy. For those with tillers, try to steer after the tiller breaks.

Simply put, wheels allow for more leverage than tillers. But with as tiny as a wheel as they have on the wheeled 250, the increased leverage is minimal. I personally think that they did it to appeal to buyers who simply HAD to have a wheel, not because of any particular mechanical advantage. That being said, I remember fighting the tiller on our C25 in a good blow and wondering about this very subject.

sten

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2009 : 10:09:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 ...I remember fighting the tiller on our C25 in a good blow and wondering about this very subject.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I'm guessing you didn't have the balanced rudder. (I replaced mine with one--like going to power steering.)

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Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2009 : 10:44:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking For those with wheels, try to steer with the emergency tiller after the cable to the quadrant breaks - it is not easy. For those with tillers, try to steer after the tiller breaks. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's so true! I've used our emergency tiller and it is a bear! Reason? The wheel is IN THE WAY!

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 11/22/2009 10:45:17

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2009 : 14:48:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">

Thanks for the tip Brooke, I'll do it. I found that raking the mast back a bit really helps the wing keel point.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I agree, but it should be raked with the rig relaxed. Tensioning the backstay bends the mast more than it rakes it. However, tensioning the forestay, which is a byproduct of tensioning the backstay, also helps point.

Edited by - Even Chance on 11/22/2009 14:49:39

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2009 : 15:22:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 For those with wheels, try to steer with the emergency tiller after the cable to the quadrant breaks - it is not easy. For those with tillers, try to steer after the tiller breaks. ...

sten
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Seems to me that you can't until you replace the tiller or, on my boat, steer with the outboard or call the towing company.

You can always rig an emergency tiller, not likely to rig an emergency wheel system.

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 11/22/2009 : 16:24:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 For those with wheels, try to steer with the emergency tiller after the cable to the quadrant breaks - it is not easy. For those with tillers, try to steer after the tiller breaks. ...

sten
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Seems to me that you can't until you replace the tiller or, on my boat, steer with the outboard or call the towing company.

You can always rig an emergency tiller, not likely to rig an emergency wheel system.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

All wheeled systems should have emergency tillers which connect directly to the rudder post. Furthermore, on larger vessels like mine, the hydraulic autopilot connects directly to the quadrant - which is basically the rudder post. I can drive sans a wheel using the autopilot. That being said, my Aires WindVane Autopilot runs to the wheel on a clutch system that would be useless if the cabling snapped.

However, the windvane could be adapted to an emergency rudder very easily. Actually, those tiller pilots are a wonderful backup. And if all else fails, wrap a bunch of chain into a mess called a warp and tow it with balanced sails, cleating it off to port or starboard depending on the tack.

Edit: Stu - some vessels require that you remove the wheel to use the emergency tiller, for some, the emergency tiller mounts forward of the helm. Both are cumbersome.

sten

Edited by - redviking on 11/22/2009 16:31:25

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2009 : 16:45:09

You can steer reasonably effectively with sails only if you don't have a loose rudder flopping around

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