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halyards to cockpit

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NCBrew
Captain

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USA
338 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/18/2009 : 20:27:22

I want to run my main and jib halyards to the cockpit. I have looked at a lot of websites including Catalina Direct. The longer I look the more confusud I get.
Can anyone tell me the parts I need, along with part numbers.

thanks
NCbrew

1998 Catalina 250WK
Ravaging
Albemarle Sound,NC

I spent most of my money on boats and beer, the rest I just wasted.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2009 : 21:45:33

Halyards need to come down to the base of the mast, go through blocks at the base and run to the sides near the front of the handrails, go through turning blocks and run back to sheet stoppers at the rear of the deck house. Fairly simple. If your current halyards cleat on the mast, you may also need to lengthen them. Hardware needs depend on the number of lines being led aft, just halyards or also outhaul, cunningham, reefing lines, etc.
Search the archives here. Might also find pics.
At a minimum I would want the mast plate that goes under the mast step, 2 swivel blocks attached to the mast plate, 2 turning blocks, and 2 single sheet stoppers. Better would be double turning blocks and double sheet stoppers.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
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1181 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2009 : 22:41:12

I know mine come down to a block at the mast plate that converts from a vertical to a horizontal plane and then route through another deck-mounted block that routes the line to the cockpit. The main halyard is on the starboard side and the jib halyard is on the port side. Both halyards are secured at the top of the cabin-top adjacent to the cockpit by cam-cleats. Greater functionality (at a greater price) can be achieved by using rope clutches instead of cam-cleats. I have repositioned my mast winch to the top of the cabin between the final starboard block and cam-cleat.

Edited by - on

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2009 : 23:43:28

Here is how mine are run.

You can read the tech tip [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.com/tech/tech25/tt008.asp"]"Triple Rope Clutches"[/url] by following the link.
It will make sailing your C-25 much easier and safer.
Good Luck

Underlined words are HOT links.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2009 : 07:13:08

If you order a catalog from Harken they have many great sketches in the appendix. You can also view these online. A lot of ideas and very easy to understand.

Good luck!

Edited by - OJ on 12/19/2009 07:14:01

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2009 : 08:51:01

Another consideration in this is the halyards themselves... They'll have to be longer, which suggests (if you haven't already) switching to all-rope instead of rope-to-wire. For that, you'll want to replace the mast-head sheaves (which might be shot anyway) with wider ones to accommodate the rope (usually 5/16"). CD has the sheaves, and they're easy to switch (when the mast is down). In fact, they have "kits" that include (I think) the base plate, swivel blocks, organizers, clutches, and low-stretch halyards--pretty much whatever combination you need, with all of the mounting hardware (including bolts just the right length) and instructions. I bought such a kit, and recall that I couldn't have saved anything by buying all the same stuff from Defender.

I would also recommend going with a "triple" organizer and clutches on each side, even if you only do one side for now. It's possible you'll find other things you'd like to lead back, such as reefing lines, vang, jib douser, etc. Triples give you room to grow.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/19/2009 08:52:43

Tom Gauntt
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204 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2009 : 18:37:53

NCbrew,

I did this very project (along with a couple hundred more) last winter/spring. Since I have a roller furler, I didn't need to run the jib halyard back, but I did run the Main halyard and a single-line reefing line aft on the starboard side. Like "Sloop Smitten", I moved the mast winch to the cabin top just aft of the new rope clutch for raising the main. Next spring, I plan on running the boom vang aft on the port side.

Dave B. makes a great recommendation as well in going from wire/rope halyards to all rope if you haven't done so already. I did this upgrade as well.

What I did basically was this: Added a mast halyard plate, new sheaves, turning block, double rope clutch, single snatch blocks (at the base plate). The reefing setup was a little more involved (drilling/tapping for cheek blocks and eye straps, etc.) With the mast plate, you are only limited by your creativity on what you want to run aft. I take the minimalist approach: Main, reef, and soon the vang. I don't fly a spinnaker, but adding a jib halyard or whisker pole lift or anything else is really pretty easy once you have the mast plate.

The trick is this: the halyard base plate makes this project so easy and looks so good. The problem is, you have to lower and even remove the mast from the tabernacle to make this upgrade. I had to drop my mast for other reasons (new wiring, VHF antenna, lights, spreaders, and rigging inspection), so changing the sheaves and adding the halyard plate where easy choices. Dropping the mast wasn't nearing as daunting as I had anticipated. There are a couple of great tips in the "Tech Section" on A-frames and gin poles that work superbly.

Parts I used were:

[url="http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=1406"]Halyard plate from Catalina Direct[/url]

[url="http://www.mauriprosailing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=SPIXAS06122&Category_Code=SPICLUTCH"]Spinlock double rope clutch[/url]

[url="http://pyacht.com/spinlock-deck-organizers.htm"]Spinlock deck organizer[/url]

[url="http://www.mauriprosailing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=HAR2600&Category_Code=57MM"]Harken blocks[/url]

[url="http://www.neropes.com/product.aspx?mid=FBAE29336C3B26FE710A6F20A0FF186C&lid=4&pid=19"]New England Ropes Sta-Set X halyards[/url]

A few other random thoughts:
Since I sail with young children, running lines aft for me was more about safety than anything else. But it is also very convenient! I looked at single, double, and triple clutches. The triples were a tight fit on my pop-top, and the single only allows you control one line. The double fits nicely between the pop-top and the handrail. When I add another rope clutch for the vang, I'll also add a double clutch just in case I need another line led aft in the future. If you drop the mast, check your spreader bases. Mine were bent and corroded: [url="http://www.littleboatlil.com/iWeb/Lil/Blog/6DECD971-D193-4744-BE89-731008F86C40.html"]Lil's Blog[/url]

This was a great upgrade and certainly worth the price of the parts.

Good luck!

Edited by - piseas on 02/01/2010 16:21:06

NCBrew
Captain

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USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2009 : 21:29:03

Tom;
Great info. I don't know exactly where to attach the mast halyard plate and why do you have to lower the mast to put it on? Could you send me a close up picture of the attachment/ You can e-mail t to amsoil@embarqmail.com. I love your blog on the maintenance of "Lil". I have a MAC also but am not up to making an album like that. I need to learn more about my MAC as well as "Day Dream".(My boat)
What size halyard rope should I use. I noticed the sheeve says max size is 7/16. It that the size to use and how long should it be to run it to the cockpit for a Catalina 25. Do I need a winch to raise the main from the cockpit and should I move the winch on the mast to the deck some where?

New subject: I do not have a pop top. How hard and what would it cost to convert the sliding top to a pop top. It is a 1977 Catalina 25.

Thanks again

NCBrew

Edited by - on

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2009 : 21:45:25

The mast plate sits under the mast. Deck, mast plate then mast.
If I may, Tom has given very good resources but...
I suggest you go for a triple on each side. Just about the same money and certainly the same amount of holes needed to be drilled in the deck.
Once you get some lines run back you will want EVERY line run back.
On the cabin top winch side, port side, I have the main halyard, topping lift and reefing line. I can reef from the cockpit in 45 seconds. Handy sailing alone or with family in a blow.
On the starboard side I have the spinnaker halyard and the out haul leaving one spare.
This could be the best upgrade you ever make.

Edited by - on

NCBrew
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USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2009 : 21:56:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 t anyway) with wider ones to accommodate the rope (usually 5/16"). CD has the sheaves, and they're easy to switch (when the mast is down). In fact, they have "kits" that include (I think) the base plate, swivel blocks, organizers, clutches, and low-stretch halyards--pretty much whatever combination you need, with all of the mounting hardware (including bolts just the right length) and instructions. I bought such a kit, and recall that I couldn't have saved anything by buying all the same stuff from Defender.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Could you possibly give me the part number of the kit. I looked on CD but the only one I found that may be correct cost ocer $500. Is that the one I need?

Thanks

Edited by - on

Even Chance
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393 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2009 : 06:15:38

E1785. Here's the link: http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=782

To amend the sequence: it's deck, halyard plate, TABERNACLE, then mast.

Forget about converting the poptop -- you'd have to saw open your cabin roof. Not worth it.

I moved the halyard winch on the mast to the cabin roof just aft of the halyard clutch. You can see that here:

Yes, boats are expensive.

Edited by - Even Chance on 12/20/2009 06:27:30

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2009 : 10:03:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NCBrew
 [quote]
Could you possibly give me the part number of the kit. I looked on CD but the only one I found that may be correct cost ocer $500. Is that the one I need?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This is essentially the kit, showing only single clutches and double deck organizers. (For some reason they don't show the swivel blocks that attach to the mast base plate, but they're included.) You can discuss variations with CD over the phone and/or by e-mail. They'll do it with double or triple Spinlock clutches (the best). You can see the mast base plate (or "halyard plate") here in the center--as mentioned, it goes beneath the existing tabernacle. When you remove the tabernacle, you find something of a gooey mess that needs to be cleaned up. Then the base plate and tabernacle need to be properly bedded--the caulk for that and the other deck hardware is included in the kit. (Make sure it's not polyurethane sealer.)

You can price out the components on Defender.com--I think you'll find that CD's kit is competitive and complete--they know exactly what's needed for out boats.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/20/2009 10:06:07

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2009 : 11:12:53

OOoops, yes the tabernacle then the halyard/mast plate.
The tabernacle is the thing you pray holds the mast up.

All good ideas above. Get triples.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2009 : 12:54:24

Still wrong, John. Repeat after me: Deck . . . plate. . . tabernacle . . . mast.

And you'd better pray for the right thing: the shrouds hold the mast up. All the tabernacle does is keep the foot in place.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2009 : 13:32:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NCBrew
 New subject: I do not have a pop top. How hard and what would it cost to convert the sliding top to a pop top. It is a 1977 Catalina 25.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Even if you could get your hands on a used poptop (from someone who is parting-out a C25) it would take a fair amount of skill to do this conversion - correctly. If you paid a qualified individual to do it (plus the cost of supplies, a used poptop and shipping for same) - it may well cost more than the boat is worth. Better list that option for your next boat!

Edited by - OJ on 12/20/2009 13:42:59

Tom Gauntt
Navigator

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204 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2009 : 14:28:36

>>>Great info. I don't know exactly where to attach the mast halyard plate and why do you have to lower the mast to put it on? Could you send me a close up picture of the attachment. 

Here you go:

Deck, halyard plate, tabernacle, mast. As you can see, the mast and tabernacle must come off to install the mast plate. You might be able to use a swivel block attached directly to the mast at the base, but there is a lot of tension on this point with the sail raised.

>>>I love your blog on the maintenance of "Lil". I have a MAC also but am not up to making an album like that. I need to learn more about my MAC as well as "Day Dream".(My boat)

Thanks for the nice words. I've enjoyed the blog and hope to add more to it when it warms up!

>>>What size halyard rope should I use. I noticed the sheeve says max size is 7/16. It that the size to use and how long should it be to run it to the cockpit for a Catalina 25.

Standard is 5/16" for rope halyards. The length needs to be long enough to go from the boom to the top of the mast then back down through the turning block and then aft to the cockpit. I think I used 80 feet on my Tall Rig. It might be a little long, but it allows me to cut a foot or so off the headboard end (where it attaches to the sail) every so often. This moves the chafing spots every year or two.

>>>Do I need a winch to raise the main from the cockpit and should I move the winch on the mast to the deck some where?

Well... if you are really strong, you could probably get by without it, but it sure makes things much easier. Getting the tension on the luff is difficult without the winch. I moved the original mast winch to the top of the cockpit, like others have mentioned, because it did no good on the mast and did a lot of good aft. additionally, I use nylon sliders on the sail and a liberal coating of Sailkote to help raising and lowering the main. Here's a picture of the double rope clutch and winch:

Here is a picture of the turning block:

as you can tell, we've had a bunch of snow here in Maryland!

Here is a picture of the double rope clutches:

>>New subject: I do not have a pop top. How hard and what would it cost to convert the sliding top to a pop top. It is a 1977 Catalina 25.

As others have already stated, retrofitting a pop-top is probably an ill-advised idea. You'd be much better off to sell your boat and buy one so equipped.

As to the singles, doubles, triples rope clutches and double or stacked turning blocks debate, my advice is this: decide how you plan to use your boat and how much you want to spend. Personally, I'm cheap but extremely value conscious. The kit from CD is a great choice, but you get what they give you: halyards, sheaves, turning blocks, single clutches, etc. The kit, while convenient, limits you.

You can run every line aft on the boat; main and jib halyards, 1 and 2 line reefs, outhaul, topping lift, vang, cunningham, etc. What you need depends on how you plan to use your boat. What you want depends on your pocketbook. If I was racing or cruising off-shore, I'd have more lines run back. But then again, if I were racing or blue water sailing, I'd be in a different boat.

As others have mentioned, this is a great upgrade and worth every penny. I did a little research and a little soul-searching a created a system that suits my needs perfectly. That is the beauty of doing this upgrade from scratch... you make it just how you want it! You can also leave yourself the flexibility to add more lines as your wants/needs evolve.

Edited by - on

NCBrew
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USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2009 : 14:44:33

Tom and all the others that replied, Thanks.

I am moving the boat tomorrow(starting) from Hampton, VA to Hertford, NC via the Dismal Swamp canal on the ICW. Total distance is about 98 miles. I will find out tomorrow morning what speed the dirty hull will make with a 9.8 Nissan.

As soon as I get time I will order the Mast to cockpit kit with a tripple turning block and triple sheeves. I am only going to run the main and jib sheets at this time. I will also move the mast winch. I now know how to do it thanks to all of you.

Smooth sailing and I'll let you know when I get home.

NCBrew

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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4382 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2009 : 15:13:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NCBrew
 I am moving the boat tomorrow(starting) from Hampton, VA to Hertford, NC via the Dismal Swamp canal on the ICW. Total distance is about 98 miles. I will find out tomorrow morning what speed the dirty hull will make with a 9.8 Nissan.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Smooth motoring to you, stay warm and don't forget the pix!

Edited by - on

NCBrew
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USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2009 : 15:56:10

A little info please.

I will be motoring in deep water (50 ft) with ship traffic for the first few miles of my trip. I will then be in about 6 feet of water and no traffic in the Dismal Swamp canal after leaving Norfolk, VA.

My question is should I put the swing keel all the way down. Would that give me more stability. Will it slow me down?

Is it OK to put it halfway down?

I never owned a swing keel before.

NCBrew

Edited by - on

Ed Cassidy
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Response Posted - 12/20/2009 : 16:11:52

Keep the keel up if you are motoring.

Edited by - on

OJ
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Response Posted - 12/20/2009 : 16:24:57

Well you might get a mixed bag of answers on this one! If the waters are calm then yes you might consider running with the keel up. BUT, how well maintained is the keel hardware? If a well worn keel cable snaps then you may be sunk. In choppy waters I'd want the keel down to help with stability. But, then, halfway up would be a good compromise . . .

Edited by - OJ on 12/20/2009 16:27:06

Tom Gauntt
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204 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2009 : 16:32:39

If you're absolutely sure of the water depth, keep the keel up. Also keep the keel up if you're sure of the status of the keel cable, turning ball, keel winch, etc. When I motor in unfamiliar waters, I like to keep the keel halfway up. That way, if I find an "uncharted shoal" (i.e. run aground), I can simply raise the keel and find deeper water.

I wish you a smooth voyage tomorrow!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2009 : 16:56:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Tom Gauntt
 ...The kit from CD is a great choice, but you get what they give you: halyards, sheaves, turning blocks, single clutches, etc. The kit, while convenient, limits you.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">When I ordered mine, they let me pick and choose. I went with two triple organizers (pretty standard) and two double clutches. If I were to do it over, I'd get triple clutches for more flexibility.

Edited by - on

Tom Gauntt
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204 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2009 : 17:07:29

Dave,

Very cool. I should've known CD would be accommodating!

Catalina Direct is great to work with and I have the receipts to prove it!

Edited by - on

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2009 : 09:19:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Even Chance
 Still wrong, John. Repeat after me: Deck . . . plate. . . tabernacle . . . mast.

And you'd better pray for the right thing: the shrouds hold the mast up. All the tabernacle does is keep the foot in place.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Not all set ups are the same.
In my case it is deck, tabernacle, mast plate then mast.
Not sure where the PO got the mast plate but it meant not havng to remove the tabernacle.
My mast plate is loose and is held in place just by the mast.
If there is any downside it is that the holes for the blocks are fore and aft of the mast rather than to each side. I have not found that to be a problem.

See my set up in the Tech Tips at [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.com/tech/tech25/tt008.asp"]Peregrine's Triple Rope Clutches[/url]

Underlined words are HOT links.

Edited by - on

Unsinkable2
Captain

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USA
273 Posts

Response Posted - 12/29/2009 : 21:53:40

NCBrew, be sure and post pics when you are done with the project. This is on my list of projects before splash this April. Sadly, a few boaters die each year on our lake. It gets steep, quick waves that make going on deck treacherous and MOB recovery challenging. I solo sometimes, or sometimes the crew goes to sleep down below and I'm alone in the cockpit headed for one of the other harbors. Having everything accessible from the cockpit will make things much safer.

Edited by - on

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