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Setting up the water and head?

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JudOWNED
1st Mate

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USA
98 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/13/2010 : 18:15:53

This is low on the priority list, but I thought I'd go ahead and ask anyway.

I've never had an RV or a boat with anything more than a porto-potty. I have no idea how to check to see if all this stuff is in working order, how to clean it, or how to use it. The owner's manual I found online is... lacking in this department. Can anyone help or direct me an online resource?

Matt W.
1983 C25 SR/SK
Monroe Harbor Marina
Sanford, FL.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 04/13/2010 : 20:17:08

Water I've never done. IMHO, you deserve a medal of honour for drinking water stored in that tank, and since we sail freshwater, storing bath water doesn't make sense.

As for the head, we fill tht toilet with water, pump it through. Fill it again, and call it done.

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Tom Gauntt
Navigator

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Response Posted - 04/13/2010 : 21:02:12

Matt, I've done them both and have learned a thing or three. Short story long, a porta-potty is much easier and you gain the space once occupied by the holding tank. I kept the marine type head even so, but constantly rethink that decision. Fresh water is kinda cool in a "yatchie" sort of way, but I'd never drink the stuff so really all it's good for is washing hands and/or dishes (and flushing the head). Loose the water tank and you get additional space to store stuff, like bottled water. I re-plumbed all the fresh water lines and rebuilt the head last spring. Replacing the water lines was pretty easy, once the tank was removed, and rebuilding the head was a significant emotional event that I'll never do again (a rebuild kit is over half as much as a complete new head!)

First, I'd decide whether to keep the water tank and/or holding tank. That decision depends on how you intend to use the boat (daysailing/racing versus weekending/long cruising) and how many people will be aboard typically. If you decide to keep what you've got, I can walk you through what I did.

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JudOWNED
1st Mate

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USA
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Response Posted - 04/14/2010 : 03:55:55

Prospector, here's a stupid question: Where does the water to flush the head come from? I thought it was the fresh-water tank, right? You were able to use the head without the fresh water tank?

Thanks Tom. Right now it'll be daysailing and some weekending (and even that will probably be while tied up at the marina). I eventually want to get into cruising but that's a couple years off minimum. We have a rather cheap (pretty much a bucket with a seat) porto-potty from our years tent camping that I plan on leaving in there for now, so there's no rush on any of this. But, at this point, we at least want to try using the stuff that's there and see how it all works, if it's convenient, if we like it, etc.

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redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/14/2010 : 03:56:47

<>

They use different heads so I'm talking about the Jabsco on mine. I think most work the same. Open the through hull and turn the pump handle to unlock it, flip the lever on the head to "water" and pump. It is pretty normal to pump many times until it primes. You pump up and down kinda fast to pull a vaccume on the air until it pulls water ( primes ) and then it is a slow up and down with the water. It should pump water into the bowl. Flip the lever to "empty" and pump and the bowl should empty. Pour a tad of wesson oil on the pump stem on occasion to run into the pump and lubricate the pump seal.

Remove the seats on the port side and the section covers and inspect the tank and hoses ( intake, pumpout, and vent hose ) you should not see leaks or cracks in the hoses. You might be able to put a flashlight on the tank and check the level.

<< how to clean it >>

When you use the toilet ( the head ) you add liquid "digester" or a powder per instructions. Nothing else in the head except TP. Go the pumpout at your marina on occasion as needed and they connect a hose to the port side pumpout port and the machine vaccumes out the contents of the tank.

I rebuilt/replaced mine last year and it was a barrel of laughs. Dirty job. Not hard, not easy, just another plumbing job.

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redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2010 : 04:05:02

<< Where does the water to flush the head come from? >>

You have an intake hose on the head that runs to a through hull forward. Under a hatch opening below the forward berth.

I think it is connected inline to the port sink, so you can pull the discharge water from that sink, but I've never used that.

If it is like a lot of things on these boats, they plumbed different years models different ways, or set them up different depending who was building out the boat.

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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3159 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2010 : 05:18:57

Redeye is right - until th egasket lets go and you can no longer get it to draw water. Then you have 2 choices - go through the life-altering experience of rebuilding the head, or get creative.

We store a 1 litre gatorade bottle behind the head. It seems to do the job nicely. When yer done you get to refill the bottle from the lake. The pump will still push the waste to the holding tank, but won't draw from the lake.

For you saltwater guys, do you think there is any difference to the pumps/fittings/rate of stink generation between saltwater and fresh in th esystem?

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Prospector
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Canada
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Response Posted - 04/14/2010 : 05:23:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redeye
 << Where does the water to flush the head come from? >>

You have an intake hose on the head that runs to a through hull forward. Under a hatch opening below the forward berth.

I think it is connected inline to the port sink, so you can pull the discharge water from that sink, but I've never used that.

If it is like a lot of things on these boats, they plumbed different years models different ways, or set them up different depending who was building out the boat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I thought the standard setup was a sink or closet to STBD and head to port

When we bought we purposely avoided that sink, figuring that:
<ul><li> One is often enough </li><li> I didn't want another thing that could break </li><li>We could use the storage </li></ul>
Therefore, our head has a direct line from the bow thru-hull to the pump intake. We have gotten it to prime exactly once in the time we have owned the boat. It was enough of an event that witnesses were called upon. Then we swore we'd never try to fit everyone in the head at once again.

ETA - I have considered mounting a folding sink behind the toilet, so that it would fold down over the toilet when called into service, but I lack the drive to do it, and so fall back on my initial 3 reasons for not having 2 sinks on the boat. If I did mount one there, it would draw from the same thru-hull as the head, and discharge to the holding tank via a one-way valve to prevent odours. The extra water going to the holding tank seems a waste to me though. During the season last year, which included our G-bay cruise, numerous race weekends and daysails we had the tank pumped twice.

Edit of Edit to add image of folding sink setup from an antiques acution. I would only incorporate the top half...

We use the system as little as possible though, taking advantage of shore-based facilities whenever possible.

Edited by - Prospector on 04/14/2010 09:54:57

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/14/2010 : 05:31:26

Sorry.. sink to starboard, head to port, through hull near the centerline. I'm up for removing the sink also.. and the water tank.

I like the head system just fine.

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JudOWNED
1st Mate

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USA
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Response Posted - 04/14/2010 : 07:27:11

Wow, great info. It sounds like all I need to do is figure out how to open the through-hull valve so it can draw water, and the valves to the holding tank so it has somewhere to go and I can test it out. I thought I had to get the whole system working (including the sinks and freshwater tank) to use the head.

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redeye
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Response Posted - 04/14/2010 : 07:40:49

I don't think there are any valves to the holding system. It just pumps straight to the holding tank.

To Use.

You open the through hull. Turn the handle on the pump clockwise to unlock. Push the lever just above the pump handle to the left which indicates to fill the bowl with water. Pump quickly to prime and then slowly to fill the bowl with water. Do you business. Turn the lever to the right to empty the bowl, and pump some more, add more water by pumping as needed. Pump dry. and lock the pump handle down.

Close the through hull fitting before you leave the boat. I leave the hatch open to remind me.

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Justincase
1st Mate

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Canada
49 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2010 : 07:47:38

I thought I'd chime in on the head debate as I have been having some of the same questions. One idea I was batting around the old noggin was to keep the marine head(replace) and install a smaller holding tank on the shelf behind the head(with a decorative cover of course). This would place the tank above the water line for easier dumping(gravity) as well as freeing up the storage under the dinette. As well to provide a siphon break. any thoughts?

Justincase, watching the snow fall.
Canada
1981 SK

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redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/14/2010 : 08:30:11

1st rule of plumbing.. "stuff flows downhill". I don't think having the tank above the head would work.

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Prospector
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Response Posted - 04/14/2010 : 09:45:32

It could work Ray, but you would have to have an anti-backflow valve in there and if it ever let go you would have a coupla gallons of raw sewage to muck out of the bilge, the head footwell, and up a few inches along the entire cabin. These things rarely let go in calm water.

I am not sure how gravity works in your favour here unless you are discharging overboard or something. I mean, the marina pumps suck the waste out of tanks much deeper than ours, so gravity isn't much of a factor, unless he is thinking of putting a spigot on the tank and "tapping the barrel" a couple times each summer, avoiding pumpout fees. As for pumping into the holding tank, you would be working uphill on every flush, so it seems like gravity would be working against you, unless you were heeled far enough to port that the tank was now level with the head.

Maybe I don't get the picture clearly, but even though I think this *could* be done, I don't see any benefit.

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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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4304 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2010 : 10:04:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 For you saltwater guys, do you think there is any difference to the pumps/fittings/rate of stink generation between saltwater and fresh in th esystem?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I replaced the head on my boat last fall. It was worth the difference in price between rebuild and new to go with the new unit. Four bolts, a few hose clamps and I was done. Took maybe 30 minutes.

I've never had a boat with a head on a fresh water lake so i can't compare but warm saltwater during the summer mixed with mild waste created a really nasty odor within a week and I was using the liquid stuff to keep the head smelling good. Started bringing fresh water along just for the head (doesn't take much when day sailing) and it makes a huge difference. I will not use water from the bay ever again.

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Justincase
1st Mate

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Canada
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Response Posted - 04/14/2010 : 10:57:47

I was referring to the picture is Don Casey's book (TOB) with the tank above the water line. This would make emptying a lot more hassle free when you have to store your black water until you are in a discharge zone. When we were on a gybsea 37 for our sail and learn this was the way that it was set up (tank above head)For those that are in this situation(non-discharge to discharge zones) how do you empty your tank while underway? Good comment about the contents flowing back through the head YUK. If you were to install the siphon breaker with vent what would keep the fluid in the toilet side of the hose from doing the same thing? Do you install a block valve nead the head?

Justincase

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JudOWNED
1st Mate

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USA
98 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2010 : 11:27:51

Well, bad news folks. I was not able to get the head working.

Ducked over to the marina during lunch. Found the through-hull valve under the V berth, and assuming it was closed, I opened it (assume it operates under the usual principle of "righty-tighty" to close and "lefty-loosey" to open. I then returned to the head, moved the lver to "Flush" and pumped away. And pumped. And pumped. Nothing but some slight gurgling noises.

Now, since I did not check the forward through hull when I had it hauled, and the boat has a dirty bottom (lol) I suppose the through-hull could be clogged. But listening to you all, it may also be the pump.

Thoughts?

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JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/14/2010 : 11:47:11

Matt,

Be careful about opening your through-hull fittings. Most boats sink while they are at the dock, according the BoatUS insurance statistics.

Other sailors here will have good advice about what to do to get a through-hull fitting in working order.

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JudOWNED
1st Mate

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USA
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Response Posted - 04/14/2010 : 11:49:29

Should be okay. I left it the way I found it. And it has been sitting in the water for some time.

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2010 : 12:16:33

Jud, are your fitting Ball valves? If so, then when the handle is in-line with the hose, the thru-hull is opened. (I should verify this, but thats the way every ball valve I've ever operated worked) If yours aren't ball valves, then I can't help.

In any case, our seacocks are very difficult to get opened all the way, and often I fear that I will break them off when opening.

Since we haven't launched yet, I'll stop by the marina tonight and fart around with ours.

Try pouring a cup of water in the bowl, and see if you can pump it out to the tank, then at least you can use the head, you'll just have to find a gatorade bottle to store in the space behind it.

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redeye
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Response Posted - 04/14/2010 : 12:26:45

outside of the through hull may be clogged with debris.

Pour Oil into pump handle as it goes into the pump.

pump fast with the flush valve in either direction.

Check to see the hose clamps are tight.

That's about the best I can tell you.

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islander
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Response Posted - 04/14/2010 : 17:16:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I then returned to the head, moved the lver to "Flush" and pumped away. And pumped. And pumped. Nothing but some slight gurgling noises.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You have to prime it to get it going. Dump some water into the bowl and try it again.

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 04/14/2010 : 17:32:22

My forward sink drain is T'ed so that I must have a stopper in place in the drain or the head will just suck air through it instead of pulling water up the through-hull.

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JudOWNED
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 04/14/2010 : 18:43:48

I think mine is too, Dave. If by T'd you mean the hose from the sink meets the hose from the head at the through hull in a T shape. I'll try stopping the sink and see if that helps. I will also try piming the head with some water.

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JohnP
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Response Posted - 04/15/2010 : 12:11:45

This is the standard plumbing setup for the water tank, sinks, and ice box in pre-1988 C-25's, as shown in the parts list in the Manuals & Brochures link on this site. There's no connection between the sinks and the head. Each sink drain has a thru-hull.

Edited by - JohnP on 04/15/2010 12:15:03

JudOWNED
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 04/15/2010 : 13:46:12

Well, more bad news, re: the head. I tried making sure the forward sink was plugged. No difference. I added some water to the bowl and the pump was barely able to empty it. It seemed like it emptied mostly through gravity. What’s worse is that I noticed some of the water leaking out near the bottom of the pump. I’m pretty sure the pump’s dead. Very frustrating.

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