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Prospector
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Canada
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Response Posted - 05/10/2011 : 12:00:48

Makes things easier then, but still be sure to check polarity before you make final connections. Remember polarity at the deck fitting may be different than you expect on a 20-30 year old boat.

Edited by - on

redviking
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USA
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Response Posted - 05/10/2011 : 12:13:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redeye
 Prospect... I got the one without the photo-eye. Lookin forward to finishing up that project.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks for buying the non-photo eye version. I followed the internet instructions to make a photo eye for Lysistrata, but I had to put a label over the switch and a light that turns on to remind me NOT to be one of those sailors who drive me crazy when I don't know where I am going at 22:15.

sten

Edited by - on

redeye
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3477 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2011 : 12:42:16

<< Remember polarity at the deck fitting may be different than you expect on a 20-30 year old boat >>

I did all new wiring. Battery to board to light.

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dmpilc
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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2011 : 13:34:59

I have 2 solar powered garden lanterns, amber (anti-bug) lenses, hanging from my stern rail, one on each side, for light in the cockpit at night. Do they make me illegal sailing or driving under power at night?

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redviking
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Response Posted - 05/10/2011 : 13:49:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 I have 2 solar powered garden lanterns, amber (anti-bug) lenses, hanging from my stern rail, one on each side, for light in the cockpit at night. Do they make me illegal sailing or driving under power at night?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I going with no, as long as they don't interfere with your real running lights as perceived by others, that and your night vision. I'd duct tape the aft side to avoid confusion. That been said, I run a solar powered clip on light often in the cockpit attached to my bimini, but not when it could be construed as confusing to others.

sten

Edited by - redviking on 05/10/2011 13:50:33

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9087 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2011 : 15:15:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 I have 2 solar powered garden lanterns, amber (anti-bug) lenses, hanging from my stern rail, one on each side, for light in the cockpit at night. Do they make me illegal sailing or driving under power at night?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I'll say yes if the bulb is visible from any distance. On the other hand, a flashlight bulb is visible essentially only to whoever you're shining it directly at. Yellow has some special meanings for tug-and-tow. Other than small beams for a chart or whatever, exterior lights should be off when under way--for your visibility and for avoiding ambiguity.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9087 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2011 : 15:22:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 Anchor lights should never be used while underway. Makes me confused 'cuz I just don't know if you are coming or going.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I've seen sailors use them in place of a stern and steaming lights. Technically, they're the same thing--a single white from any direction, aft of and above the colored lights. I agree it's a bad idea (except, I guess, in Kansas, where we've been told the convention is to turn on everything no matter what you're doing).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Master Curmudgeon - with all due respect, technically they ARE NOT the same thing.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Anchor Sten, with all due respect, a vessel under power is required to show a 360-degree white at least a meter above and aft of red-green sidelights. A sailboat under power is such a vessel. The steaming/sternlight combination is one way to show a 360 degree white (only one is visible from any direction), and a mast-head 360 white light is another. A mast-head tricolor is valid under sail, or under power in combination with the steaming light (again for 360 degrees total). I don't prefer these things, but they meet the regs.

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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 05/10/2011 : 19:17:52

Thanks for the reminder to always keep my handheld air horn in the drink holder at the helm. I had forgotten to do that this year. I haven't had a close call in my past year of sailing, but I know it's only a matter of time. And with the way these guys' bows ride high enough to block their view, and/or the possibility them being DUI, I'm afraid it's only a matter of time.

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redviking
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Response Posted - 05/11/2011 : 06:29:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Anchor Sten, with all due respect, a vessel under power is required to show a 360-degree white at least a meter above and aft of red-green sidelights. A sailboat under power is such a vessel. The steaming/sternlight combination is one way to show a 360 degree white (only one is visible from any direction), and a mast-head 360 white light is another. A mast-head tricolor is valid under sail, or under power in combination with the steaming light (again for 360 degrees total). I don't prefer these things, but they meet the regs.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hmmm.... yet another grey area that doesn't make any sense. According to Chapmans "sailboats should never display a white masthead light as this light is only shown by a vessel propelled by machinery."

But when you consult the interpreting running lights section - page 129 - it indicates none (masthead lights not used under sail alone.) But there is no mention of the steaming light when under power.

Then I consulted my Weems and Plath COLREGS sliderule light identification guide. IT shows a steaming light for "Sailing vessel: Motor Sailing."

A google search was equally frustrating. Vessels less than 39.4 feet can have a 225 or 360 masthead light - or both? Aaarrrgghhhh!!! A big argument for a tri-color. When I see a tri-color and a steaming light, I know it is a sailboat under power. But, according to my COLREGS thingy a 225 forward facing light at the masthead indicates a motor vessel underway. The white light masthead is not a 360 and is not visible from astern - which validates my belief that an anchor light is not to be used underway.

Now sailing vessels over 23 feet have to comply and operate under the same rules as power vessels when under power - so what is the origin of the steaming light on sailboats?

sten

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2011 : 06:46:53

Here's an example of someone not following the rules as the boat on the left should have the red Santa to port and a green elf to starboard.

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Prospector
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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2011 : 07:24:32

Dum-dum question for the wise ones - if you light up teh masthead light while under power, you would have to blckout the light on teh transom. While under sail, you couldn't blackout the forward half of the masthead light, so you have to use the transom light.

Seems to me that unless you have the ability to blackout one or the other, you can't use the masthead light under power.

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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 05/11/2011 : 08:16:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 
Hmmm.... yet another grey area that doesn't make any sense. According to Chapmans "sailboats should never display a white masthead light as this light is only shown by a vessel propelled by machinery."....Now sailing vessels over 23 feet have to comply and operate under the same rules as power vessels when under power - so what is the origin of the steaming light on sailboats?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I don't see any grey area here at all. Methinks you are making it much too complicated.

IIRC the COLREGS do not distinguish between a small sailboat under power and a small motorboat. They are the same. You might want to try to infer a difference by the relative heights of the lights on most common configurations, but there is no statutory requirement for their lights to look any different from each other.

The origin of the steaming light is simple. Power boats always need to display white light over 360°, so they typically have a single fixture to do it. (Little runabouts will have a post-mounted white fixture on the stern.) Sailboats need 135° astern when under sail, and 360° under power. The simplest way to do this is two separate fixtures. The 135° one is wired to the same switch as the red-green running lights, and the 225° one is wired separately for steaming only. There are other ways to do it with a 360° fixture, but it requires you to wire the stern light separately and turn it off. Given the wide confusion over this already, such a system is inviting problems.

As for what Chapmans said, I'd suggest reading some more. I don't have it with me now, but I was looking at this subject just a couple of weeks ago and IIRC there was a section that was very clear about what lighting requirements were for under sail vs. under power.

Edited by - TakeFive on 05/11/2011 10:20:44

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2011 : 08:32:41

Check out the animation, and the illustration, for #1 in the link below.

[url="http://www.boatus.org/onlinecourse/reviewpages/boatusf/project/info2c.htm"]BoatUS Navigation Lights[/url]

Edited by - on

redviking
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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2011 : 08:51:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RhythmDoctor
 [quote]I don't see any grey area here at all. Methinks you are making it much too complicated.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This thread will be fun to discuss when I go for my Captains ticket next month. And uh, it's sorta complicated. Are tri-colors actually supposed to be stacked?

" Lights for sailing and rowing vessels
Sailing vessels underway and vessels under oars

(a) A sailing vessel underway shall exhibit:
1. sidelights;
2. a sternlight.
(b) In a sailing vessel of less than 20 metres (66 ft) in length the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule may be combined in one lantern carried at or near the top of the mast where it can best be seen.
(c) A sailing vessel underway may, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit at or near the top of the mast, where they can best be seen, two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being red and the lower green, but these lights shall not be exhibited in conjunction with the combined lantern permitted by paragraph (b) of this Rule.
(d) 1. A sailing vessel of less than 7 metres (23.0 ft) in length shall, if practicable, exhibit the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) or (b) of this Rule, but if she does not, she shall have ready at hand an electric torch or lighted lantern showing a white light which shall be exhibited in sufficient time to prevent collision.
2. A vessel under oars may exhibit the lights prescribed in this Rule for sailing vessels, but if she does not, she shall have ready at hand an electric torch or lighted lantern showing a white light which shall be exhibited in sufficient time to prevent collision.
(e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downwards."

sten

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redviking
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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2011 : 08:59:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 Check out the animation, and the illustration, for #1 in the link below.

[url="http://www.boatus.org/onlinecourse/reviewpages/boatusf/project/info2c.htm"]BoatUS Navigation Lights[/url]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Check out Light shapes, Colors, and positions #4

Shows the red over the green and a white one up top?

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2011 : 09:04:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 Check out the animation, and the illustration, for #1 in the link below.

[url="http://www.boatus.org/onlinecourse/reviewpages/boatusf/project/info2c.htm"]BoatUS Navigation Lights[/url]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Check out Light shapes, Colors, and positions #4

Shows the red over the green and a white one up top?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And #1 shows the use of an all around (anchor) light.

Edited by - dlucier on 05/11/2011 09:06:34

redviking
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Response Posted - 05/11/2011 : 09:23:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 [quote]
And #1 shows the use of an all around (anchor) light.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, but that is incorrect - I found this on the Coasties website...

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=navRulesContent

"Masthead light" means a white light placed over the fore and aft centerline of the vessel showing an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of 225 degrees and so fixed as to show the light from right ahead to 22.5 degrees abaft the beam on either side of the vessel, except that on a vessel of less than 12 meters in length the masthead light shall be placed as nearly as practicable to the fore and aft centerline of the vessel."

Edited by - on

DaveR
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2015 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2011 : 09:40:06

Getting back to the original topic, it reminds me of when I [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21549"]almost got run down in 09[/url].

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dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2011 : 09:50:36

RULE 23:
POWER-DRIVEN VESSELS UNDERWAY
(a) A power-driven vessel underway shall exhibit:

a masthead light forward;

a second masthead light abaft of and higher than the forward one; except that a vessel of less than 50 meters in length shall not be obliged to exhibit such a light but may do so;

sidelights: and

a sternlight.

(b) An air-cushion vessel when operating in nondisplacement mode shall, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit an all-round flashing yellow light, where it can best be seen. [Inld]

(c) A WIG craft only when taking off, landing and in flight near the surface shall, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit a high intensity all-round flashing red light. [Intl]

(c/d)

A power-driven vessel of less than 12 meters in length may in lieu of the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule exhibit an all-round white light and sidelights.

a power-driven vessel of less than 7 meters in length whose maximum speed does not exceed 7 knots may in lieu of the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule exhibit an all-round white light and shall, if practicable, also exhibit sidelights. [Intl]

the masthead light or all-round white light on a power-driven vessel of less than 12 meters in length may be displaced from the fore and aft centerline of the vessel if centerline fitting is not practicable, provided the sidelights are combined in one lantern which shall be carried on the fore and aft centerline of the vessel or located as nearly as practicable in the same fore and aft line as the masthead light or the all-round white light. [Intl]

(d) A power-driven vessel when operating on the Great Lakes may carry an all-round white light in lieu of the second masthead light and sternlight prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule. The light shall be carried in the position of the second masthead light and be visible at the same minimum range. [Inld]

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9087 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2011 : 09:58:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 Hmmm.... yet another grey area that doesn't make any sense....... Now sailing vessels over 23 feet have to comply and operate under the same rules as power vessels when under power - so what is the origin of the steaming light on sailboats?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Sten, you're making it more complicated than it is... The purpose of the steaming light (225 degrees forward) is, combined with the sailboat's stern light (135 degrees aft) to show a single white light to anybody on the water (360 degrees) when under power. A 360-degree mast-head light does the same thing, but must not be shown along with either of the other two.

If you see a sidelight (colored) and a white light above it, you're looking at a boat running under power (even if it's a sailboat). If you see only a side-light, you're looking at a sailboat. Just a white light: a boat that you must give way to--power or sail--since you are approaching it from astern.

All of this is, of course, theoretical and subject to the vagaries of the skippers involved.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/11/2011 10:08:06

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9087 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2011 : 10:43:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 (c) A sailing vessel underway may, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit at or near the top of the mast, where they can best be seen, two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being red and the lower green...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Where did you find that?? I've never heard of such a thing, and can't find it anywhere... Correction: I found it in Wikipedia... It still makes no sense to me. Is this a Euro thing? (...like the red-green nav-aids being reversed?) It's listed there as an international rule, but I've still never seen it before. And the inland rules apply to where most of us sail/motor. You'll be learning both sets of rules for your test--and there are differences...

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/11/2011 10:50:38

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2011 : 11:13:18

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 05/11/2011 : 11:34:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 (c) A sailing vessel underway may, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit at or near the top of the mast, where they can best be seen, two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being red and the lower green...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Where did you find that?? I've never heard of such a thing, and can't find it anywhere...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

[url="http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=Rule25"]RULE 25: SAILING VESSELS UNDERWAY AND VESSELS UNDER OARS[/url]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So what's up with the tricolor? Not legal?

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2011 : 11:43:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 (c) A sailing vessel underway may, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit at or near the top of the mast, where they can best be seen, two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being red and the lower green...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Where did you find that?? I've never heard of such a thing, and can't find it anywhere...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

[url="http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=Rule25"]RULE 25: SAILING VESSELS UNDERWAY AND VESSELS UNDER OARS[/url]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So what's up with the tricolor? Not legal?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Rule 25b

(a) A sailing vessel underway shall exhibit:

sidelights;
a sternlight.
(b) In a sailing vessel of less than 20 meters in length the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule may be combined in one lantern carried at or near the top of the mast where it can best be seen.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2011 : 12:18:07

For those who are metrically challenged, 20 meters is around 65 feet.

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