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Second set of eyes?

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JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/06/2011 : 19:00:10

After getting some feedback on the obvious issues with the 25 that I'm considering (see http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23917&whichpage=1), I'm feeling much more positive about her than I was initially. However, my wife still has serious reservations. She's not ruling the boat out, but she would like to find someone with more experience (shouldn't be hard, I'm still wet behind the ears) to help look over the boat. I have a few friends who are sailors, but one is in DC (and the boat is at the Jersey shore) and the other might just try to buy the boat out from under me! So, I thought I'd see if anyone was in the Ocean City, NJ area who might be willing to come take a look at the boat with me this weekend or next, if the weather is good. After reading what others have done for fiberglass repair, I think I can handle the repair to the bow. I can try to find a local sail shop to patch the main, too (though if anyone has any recommendations, they would be appreciated).

Anybody willing to spare an hour or two? I'd be happy to take out to dinner to thank you for your time! Oh, and she's in the water, so I know I won't be able to inspect below the water line, and that poses certain inherent risks.

And yes, I also know that I could hire a pro to do an even more thorough inspection. But the boat is under $2000, and I just don't see a lot of point in spending $100+ to have her pulled from the water, plus $500+ to have her inspected. The cost of the inspection alone would rapidly approach the cost of the boat, and that doesn't seem to be the best of investments.

I know it's a long shot, but thought I'd try!

- Jim
Formerly of 1984 C25 named Dragon Wing

NOTE: In my case, PLEASE don't confuse stars/number of posts with actual knowledge. On any topic.

Edited by - JimGo on 09/06/2011 19:02:12

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2011 : 20:28:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimGo
 ...The cost of the inspection alone would rapidly approach the cost of the boat, and that doesn't seem to be the best of investments...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">So, glancing through your other thread, I gather that you don't know whether the sail(s) are repairable, and whether the bow is a big deal or a small one... just for starters. Then there's the question of how much rot is in the plywood under the decks and cabintop, whether the electrical system is safe (won't start a fire), whether the standing rigging is safe, whether the engine needs replacement... I've just rattled off maybe $6,000+ worth of stuff without really getting started. And virtually nobody here is equipped and experienced to answer all of those questions. So, how much are you ready to spend? And what will you do with her if these issues turn out to be more than (1) you want to spend, or (2) than she'll ever be worth, or (3) the cost of another better-cared-for boat?

You should think of a C-25 is being at least a $6,000 boat, which is what she'll cost you whether you pay that to the seller or spend it later to take care of all the neglect and abuse. That $500 (sounds a little high, but...) will not only answer most of these questions--it will give you a chance to learn from the surveyor and ask lots of questions. Take a clipboard. That $500 might give you a strong case to bargain the boat down by more than $500, or it might convince that you're about to make let's say a $5,000 mistake ($2,000 plus whatever work is done before you decide you can't justify the rest and you have a big boat that you can't get rid of).

Then there's liability insurance... and many insurers require a survey on boats older than 10 years. So, now that the boat belongs to you, you have to have it surveyed anyway, but now whatever bad news turns up is just your bad luck.

Life is a bet...

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/06/2011 20:32:34

JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2011 : 20:31:20

Thanks, I wasn't aware of the survey requirement for older boats!

Edited by - on

JeanAndre
Navigator

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USA
224 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2011 : 05:01:45

Hi JimGo,

I am a new Catalina owner myself, I had mine for less than 6 months now.
I got mine for under 2,000.00 but mine was in great shape as far as hull and spars.
It had no interior though.
So far I spent another 3,000.00 on the boat, but this is what I expected.

From what I saw in the pictures you can expect to that you will end up spending a lot of money on this boat.
There are some great deals on way better boats here on the forum and they will end up costing you the same amount of money, less the headaches!!!

Hope this helps you make a decision.

Plus, Happy Wife, Happy Life!! So get a nice boat drop it in the water and take the Admiral for great times!!!

Cheers

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2011 : 05:32:45

I'll add my .02, so take it for what it's worth.

The 6 areas of the boat that you will deal with directly on every sail will be these:

1) Tiller and attached rudder
2) Running rigging
3) Sails
4) Outboard motor
5) Swing keel(in your case)
6) Beer/cup holder...

These are the items that will also give you the most grief if they are not working properly. Especially the cup holder

. I would rather buy a sound hull that needs sails and an outboard, that way these two items would be brand new and less likely to give you problems.

Edited by - on

Tom Gauntt
Navigator

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204 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2011 : 05:54:34

Jim,

Getting a second set of eyes is always a great idea. I would love to help you out, but the Jersey shore is too far out of the neighborhood. If you don't get a volunteer, you might consider taking a bunch of photos and uploading to flickr or shutterfly. Then the forum could at least give you some feedback on that. You have received some very good advice from a very experienced group. If you are new to sailing or this is your first purchase, you might really consider a professional survey for the first boat. The value in a survey is often in what you don't see. The bow rail damage is obvious... what might not be obvious to you is the condition of the standing rigging or the moisture/delamination problems or electrical issues. If any of these are problems on this boat, it could be quite expensive and/or time consuming to repair.

With regard to the boat you are looking at, I think the repair to the bow rail stanchion base is much more than "cosmetic". The stem fitting is within inches of the hole and who knows what other stress was put on that area or how much damage was done. Personally, I would never be comfortable with a repair in that area UNLESS the entire core forward of the locker cover was replaced and the stem fitting was replaced with the newer reinforced design. It would be oh-so-easy for the entire rig to fall if that stem fitting were to let go.

Bottom line, you can probably do all the needed repairs on this boat. At some point though, you might wish you'd found a different boat. Good luck in your decision!

Regards,

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2011 : 06:21:51

Jim, it sounds like you're looking for somebody to tell you it's OK to buy this thing even though you know, deep in your bones, it would be smarter to walk away. There are a lot of boats out there. Granted, they'll cost more than $1500 up front but, unless your time is not worth anything, you will spend a great deal of money in parts, supplies, man-hours. My wife might notice that I'm spending so much time AND money on this bargain of a boat. It's not a bargain. Have you wondered about why the guy is selling it? He knows that it's easier to unload it on somebody by selling it cheaply than it is to dispose of 2+ tons of fiberglass and iron.

Tom's right. These aren't just cosmetic repairs. The core isn't rotten there. It's gone!

Unless I was experienced in structural repairs such as this and enjoyed the work as much as I enjoy sailing, I'd run away from this project.

Edited by - on

pfduffy
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2011 : 06:22:38

Jim - I live in Jersey, just across the river from Philadelphia. I am not very experienced, but would be happy to provide my $.02 - but that would truly be actual value. Email me at pat at duffyfamily dot org. It has been said more than once on this forum - a $10,000 boat is going to cost $10,000 regardless of the purchase price.

Edited by - on

JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2011 : 06:43:01

John,
You're close. I was looking for someone to actually see the boat and tell me either "yeah, if you can get her for $1000, you're looking at 2 weeks worth of work and $500 in bills, but she should be good to go in the Spring (or as good to go as any boat her age will be)", or "hey dummy, you missed the cracked rudder mounts and the obvious stress marks in the stays - run away". As I said, I don't expect a showroom-new boat at my price point, but the idea of having a slightly larger boat than the 22's that I've been seeing is/was certainly appealing. I don't think I want to start off with anything larger than a 25, but the 25 was a really nice size and seemed like a very comfortable boat. In a nutshell, I'm jealous of you all! :)

Pat, I appreciate the offer, and will keep you in mind! I think the others have talked me out of this particular boat.

Edited by - on

pfduffy
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2011 : 07:00:47

Jim - I'm happy to take you (and your family) sailing on my boat if you like. I expect to keep her in the water until early November.

I think you are wise to stay away from this boat. Keep looking - you will find one that meets your needs.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2011 : 07:55:40

I'm pretty sure those eyeballing 25+ year old boats listed at the bottom end of the price range, or at give away prices, are most likely aware they aren't getting a pristine, just add water, type of boat. Sure, there are a lot of boats you should walk away from at this price point, but not all boats selling on the low side are going to require $5,000.00 before you get the bottom wet.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2011 : 08:46:56

You're right, Don. But I think boats like you've described are probably better for somebody with a fair amount of experience in boat repair and the time/interest for a project.

Edited by - on

JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2011 : 09:06:17

Pat, that is very kind of you! Where do you keep your boat? Do you sail in the Delaware? Do you like sailing there (and your marina)?

Edited by - on

pfduffy
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2011 : 10:10:10

I keep my boat on the Barnegat Bay at Laurel Harbor Marina in Lanoka Harbor, NJ. The boat used to belong to my Father-in-Law and it has lived in this marina since the boat was new. The marina is pretty low budget, no frills, but cheap and well protected.

I like sailing the Barnegat Bay over the Delaware because there is more consistent wind virtually no commercial shipping traffic.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2011 : 10:39:26

In the For-What-It's-Worth category, last week a 1985 C-25, fixed keel, 5 hp Nissan o/b, in what looked to be fairly good condition, was auctioned on Ebay by Boatangelministries. The final bid was $2,550. No trailer. A C-22 buddy of mine was going to bid on it (probably to fix up a bit and resell), but the price went higher than he wanted to pay. I was going to let him use my trailer if he got it. He should have kept bidding. Somebody got real bargain!

Edited by - on

ckroll
1st Mate

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50 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2011 : 11:19:22

I know I've recounted this a few times for some other guys looking to purchase a fixer-upper but IMO I would do some searching for a "just add water" boat rather than something that needs a fair amount of work. I went through a major restore that started last August and ended in April. Lots of work and when it was all said and done we had about $3500 in her (and a boatload of time). And, just from what I've seen on Craigslist, Ebay, Boattrader, et al, you can get one just as nice or nicer than mine for about that or less. It was good for me to go through the endeavor to learn about the boat but I would never do it again unless I just had a lot of time and money to waste..which I have very little of right now.

Good luck!

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 09/07/2011 : 12:09:00

Just saw this one, check it out:

http://sailingtexas.com/201101/scatalina25258.html

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2011 : 12:15:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ckroll
 I know I've recounted this a few times for some other guys looking to purchase a fixer-upper but IMO I would do some searching for a "just add water" boat rather than something that needs a fair amount of work. I went through a major restore that started last August and ended in April. Lots of work and when it was all said and done we had about $3500 in her (and a boatload of time). And, just from what I've seen on Craigslist, Ebay, Boattrader, et al, you can get one just as nice or nicer than mine for about that or less. It was good for me to go through the endeavor to learn about the boat but I would never do it again unless I just had a lot of time and money to waste..which I have very little of right now.

Good luck!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Great perspective

Edited by - on

Jan Briede
Navigator

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USA
162 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2011 : 12:20:12

Jim,
I was offered a free 1979 boat two years ago now, and took it. I have motored it to its new slip and to a yard to haul it. Subsequently I took it back to the slip I have it. Hopefully I will be able to raise the mast within two weeks and go sailing. Having only weekends to work on the boat, it has taken a frustrating long time to get it in the shape it is in now.
It always takes longer and cost more money than expected, but I know my boat intimately!
Jan

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2011 : 12:20:37

There's a difference between a fixer upper and a cleaner upper. I purchased my boat for $2,600.00 and all it really needed was soap and water. The boat was in excellent shape, both cosmetically and structurally, the outboard was like new (two, maybe three seasons on it), and it had all the upgrades (spreader brackets, stem fitting, newer balanced rudder,...etc). With the Harken furling and more than decent sails, this boat was ready to go. Of course, in the past ten years I've owned it I did the usual stuff (complete bottom job, teak refinish, sails, rigging,...), but those are rather routine maintenance issues that apply to any boat.

Edited by - on

JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2011 : 12:27:27

David, thanks for the link. I've already exchanged E-mails with him and am waiting on another reply. I think my budget is probably too low for him, but it was worth a try!

Something tells me I may have to "settle" (and I use that term very loosely) for an S2 6.8 that I've had my eye on. She's a nice boat in very good shape for her age (1976). This is the current owner's 4th or 5th boat, and he has taken excellent care of her. The S2's cabin isn't as "luxurious" as the Catalina's, but it should be more than sufficient for our intended use.

Edited by - on

JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2011 : 12:30:10

Here's a link to some info on the S2: http://www.sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=265

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2011 : 12:43:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimGo
 ...it should be more than sufficient for our intended use.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Speaking of which, what's yours? Do you plan to keep her in the water somewhere or sail her off a trailer? If the latter, before you buy any C-25, make sure you understand (hopefully try) the process of raising and lowering the mast and setting her up. You might decide she's not a "trailer sailer." (Many of us prefer to characterize the C-25 as a "transportable" boat.) 22-23' is generally the limit for comfortable day-sailing off a trailer, given the setup and take-down effort involved.

Edited by - on

JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2011 : 12:57:59

Good question, Dave. Our intention is to keep her set up, not break her down every night. However, we're still "up in the air" as to whether we want to keep her rigged but on a trailer, or in the water, and part of that will be determined based on the ease with which the boat can be launched and retrieved. Like you, I wasn't considering the 25 a "trailerable" boat, but more of a "transportable". If we went with a 25, I'd probably look to keep her in the water most of the time, while still keeping the (at least theoretical) option open of trailering her. I see the 22 as giving me a little more flexibility in that regard, but I'll have to give up some space and comfort in exchange.

As I think I mentioned, this is our first boat, and we're still trying to figure out a) how much we'll use her, b) where we'll use her most, and c) whether we really want to own a boat. One reason for the low budget for this boat is that we're really "testing the waters" (no pun intended) to see how it all shakes out. Our hope is that, should we decide owning a boat isn't for us (or at least a boat of this size, as opposed to a 14-16 that we could keep at the local lake that's 30 minutes from the house), we should be able to get rid of it fairly quickly due to the low price. From that perspective, my wife has been pretty good - she understands that the intent with THIS boat is to SAIL her, not necessarily to weekend/live aboard, and she's OK with the cabin not being in the best of shape, etc. However, where she isn't willing to compromise is on safety. And that's what has ultimately killed our interest in this particular Catalina 25.

---- edit ----
I should add that the current plan is not to make her a "dockside condo", but rather to use her for sailing. My wife has issues with motion sickness and doesn't think she'll be able to sleep on the boat (or at least, not with any regularity). The boys and I may still do that, but even we probably won't be doing it every weekend. So, the cabin (and cockpit) on a Diller Schwill 16, Com-Pac, etc. would probably be a little cramped for us if we're not keeping the boat close to the house, but what we've seen on the 21-25's looks to be more than sufficient for our purposes.

Edited by - JimGo on 09/07/2011 13:05:43

pfduffy
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2011 : 13:22:25

Jim - while you look for a boat, one good way to a)learn alot about sailing and b)know if you will actually enjoy the sport would be to join Liberty Sailing Club https://sites.google.com/a/g.libertysailing.org/libertysailing/

I am not a member, but did join their frostbite series a few years back. The people I met were terrific. You won't get as much "tiller time" as you would like, but it will get you on the water.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2011 : 15:28:12

Jim, looking at that S2 (I wasn't familiar with it), it seems like a good alternative. It has pretty substantial ballast for a 22-footer, so should be relatively stable, comfortable, and safe for your learning, and should give you some flexibility for learning about your preferences for venues, conditions, etc. That and the Catalina C-22 (there are lots of those) would be good choices, and the C-22 is probably the best known boat in that class for resale purposes. The C-22 also probably gives you a little more cabin comfort.

You say this is your first boat... Are you new to sailing? Is your wife? What is your experience level there?

Edited by - on

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