Association Forum - What to do?

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

What to do?

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Previous Page | Next Page

Author

Topic

Page: of 4

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

Members Avatar

USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2011 : 16:23:24

I have a roller 150 and would recommend a 135 unless you sail in consistently light winds. A standard rig may be a little better than my TR, but a furled 150 makes a tolerable 135 and a usable 110. It is functional but poor below that, but a 135 will be much better.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2011 : 16:40:03

Patrick,
Without getting into the comparison's between a partially furled 150 and a 135 I would offer the 135 will take less effort to furl, especially if the wind picks up and you are feeling overpowered. At 72 years of age I would look at what puts me in my comfort zone. A 135 gives you lots of options to furl down to that you can handle and is less likely to limit your visibility on the lee side. A 110 might even be a better choice depending on your abilities. Nothing wrong with growing old gracefully.

Edited by - on

NCBrew
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2011 : 19:15:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sloop Smitten
 Patrick,
Without getting into the comparison's between a partially furled 150 and a 135 I would offer the 135 will take less effort to furl, especially if the wind picks up and you are feeling overpowered. At 72 years of age I would look at what puts me in my comfort zone. A 135 gives you lots of options to furl down to that you can handle and is less likely to limit your visibility on the lee side. A 110 might even be a better choice depending on your abilities. Nothing wrong with growing old gracefully.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Thing is i have a 110 and a 150. I have never used the 150. Most of the time the wind is up too much for the 150. I think I will look at a 135.
On another note:
I have been looking at making my own furler. I found a couple of PVC ones that are easy and seem to work. Although they seem to be on smaller boats.
Anyone have plans for a PVC homemade furler?

Edited by - NCBrew on 10/10/2011 19:19:10

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2011 : 20:24:35

I'm suspicious that for a sail as big as a 135 on the mast-head rigged C-25, making your own furler is going to be dicey. Many simple, cheap furlers of the past were not capable of reefing a sail--holding it partially rolled under the load of sailing. Small-boat furlers are generally for very small fractionally-rigged jibs that are never reefed and take virtually no effort to furl or unfurl.

A good furler has a ball-bearing swivel at the top and a bearing-based drum at the bottom, with a "foil" made of extruded aluminum or semi-rigid plastic that's molded with a groove for the wire that's sewn into the luff of the sail. It's not complicated, but it's precision stuff, well-proven for handling the loads of our boats and much bigger ones, and reliable for rolling up the sail in the situation when you need it most.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/10/2011 20:28:17

cshaw
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2011 : 21:16:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NCBrew
On another note:
I have been looking at making my own furler. I found a couple of PVC ones that are easy and seem to work. Although they seem to be on smaller boats.
Anyone have plans for a PVC homemade furler?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Congrats on being active at 72! I am a mere 65, but plan on racing my boat for many many more years!! My thoughts follow, and are based on 49 years of racing and cruising my boats and aboard a lot of other boats.

I use a 130 on my boat 80% of the time when I am not racing. It hanks on, as all of my jibs do, and I do not intend to have a roller furler on my boat as long as I am still capable of operating the hanks on the jibs. I use #2 size hanks, since they are large and easily operated.

Yes, a roller furler can be quite convenient, but I have had two friends almost lose their boats when their roller furling would not furl the sail, and they were stuck in a big wind with a sail flogging like crazy. When I single hand, I often rig a downhaul to lower the jib from the cockpit (its like an upside down halyard that pulls the sail down). Its really handy when the breeze is up!

Also, I can simply use a smaller jib when the breeze is up (I have a 110 also), or a larger sail when its lighter (I also have a 140 and a 155).

The hanked on sails have a MUCH better sail shape than a roller furler, and especially so when the sails are partially furled in an effort to "reef" them. They get smaller, but also they are often more full, with the result they hurt rather than help quite a lot of the time.

Really big boats sailed shorthanded benefit a lot more from roller furling than 25 ft boats IMHO.

Storage is quite handy with a roller furler, but a sail bag that snaps around the still hanked on jib and is held off the deck with the jib halyard works really nice.

So, I would seriously consider keeping your hanked on 110, and maybe getting your hanked on 150 cut down to a 130 or so, and using a jib bag and occasionally rigging a jib downhaul (I have heard them called a dousing line also).

Whatever you do, don't stop sailing!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers!

Chuck

Edited by - on

NCBrew
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 03:29:04

Thanks Chuck:
I have decided to keep on sailing. When I do my pre-sail preparations I don't have any problems. All of my lines lead to the cockpit and I do have a downhaul on the jib which works great. The boat sails fine with the 110. If I ever get light winds I will try the 150. I am still thinking of making my own roller furler.

Edited by - on

NCBrew
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 06:14:34

I did it.

I just ordered the CDI FF4 furler and 150 sail from National Sails. ($1309) + shipping

I can use the 150 on light winds and furl it if the wind picks up.

I hope that is the right choice.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 06:36:08

Our sails are hank-on, and my 155% is my go-to sail. I sometimes wish I had a 135% when the wind hasn't piped up enough to justify the 110% but isn't light enough for teh 155%. In those conditions I'll put up the 110% and after the windward leg swap to the 155% if the wind isn't building. But sail changes are still woefully slow on our boat, so often I'll just fuggetaboudit, and mutter under my breath for teh reaching and downwind legs, then work hard to make up the time to windward.

I'm talking about racing without furling though, and this thread is about pleasure cruising with furling.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 07:12:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cshaw
 ...but I have had two friends almost lose their boats when their roller furling would not furl the sail, and they were stuck in a big wind with a sail flogging like crazy...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...which is why I recommend against making or buying a cheap one. A friend single-handed her Island Packet cutter rig across the Gulf Stream many times, with two Harken furlers. I'd say she was safer than if she'd had to go to the foredeck in Stream conditions. If you get the CDI, most owners strongly recommend the bearing option--there are many reports of difficulties without, followed by huge improvements with. Don't go too cheap.

BTW, BMW/Oracle used (and uses) a roller-furler--I'll have to warn Larry Ellison that it's hurting his sail shape.

I'll do the same for Mike Hennessy here in Mystic, who races the Class 40 "Dragon" with a furler...

This puppy is on the end of a dock just down the river from me (when she's not racing across the Atlantic or somewhere).

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/11/2011 07:34:07

NCBrew
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 07:34:33

Stinkpotter:

I talked to the man at National Sails and he said he has been selling CDI furlers for 15 years and has never had a problem with out bearings.
Bottom line the bearings cost $100 so I told him to add them to my order.

Thanks to all.

Edited by - NCBrew on 10/11/2011 07:35:00

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 07:37:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NCBrew
 I did it.

I just ordered the CDI FF4 furler and 150 sail from National Sails. ($1309) + shipping

I can use the 150 on light winds and furl it if the wind picks up.

I hope that is the right choice.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If in the earlier post you said you have a 150, but never use it because it's too much sail for the local conditions, why buy a 150 for the furler? Sounds like you should have went smaller as you'll be reefing the 150 nearly every time you go out. With a furling sail, you should get one that's not too big nor too small for the local conditions. If the local conditions were such that you used a 135 to a 170 most of the time, then choose a 150, but if you never use a 150 due to local conditinos, then get a smaller sail for the furler as you'll not be happy sailing under a reefed headsail for the majority of the time.

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3476 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 07:38:49

I think about that every time I change out a headsail....

"I'll bet Larry dosen't have to go forward and stuff this thing down the hatch."

Edited by - on

JimGo
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
962 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 08:00:26

NCBrew, does this mean you'll be selling your existing headsails? If so, be sure to list them in the Swap Meet!

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3476 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 08:17:49

NC That is very exciting... I'm bettin you are gonna Love that roller furling. I had one on a 30ft Catalina and it was really a treat. It is such a fun feeling to pop that sail out and feel her take off.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 08:38:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NCBrew
 I talked to the man at National Sails and he said he has been selling CDI furlers for 15 years and has never had a problem with out bearings... Bottom line the bearings cost $100 so I told him to add them to my order.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">So now you'll never know if it was worth it.

But I've followed a number of sailing forums over the past 20 years or so, and it's an oft-recurring theme--a CDI furler that's balky, advice to add the bearing option, followed by "WOW! Why didn't they tell me in the first place?" ...and then "Why do they even sell them without?" (Easy answer...)

I won't argue about the sail size for your situation, except to say I felt my 130 (like a 135 with a slightly higher clew) was a wonderful general-purpose cruising sail. Compared to a friend's 155, it was much easier to handle and see around, while generating all the power I needed. (I didn't race her.) On light-air days, a 150/155 can actually be too big and heavy down-wind unless you pole it out.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/11/2011 08:43:04

cshaw
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 08:54:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cshaw
 ...but I have had two friends almost lose their boats when their roller furling would not furl the sail, and they were stuck in a big wind with a sail flogging like crazy...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...which is why I recommend against making or buying a cheap one.

A friend single-handed her Island Packet cutter rig across the Gulf Stream many times, with two Harken furlers. I'd say she was safer than if she'd had to go to the foredeck in Stream conditions. If you get the CDI, most owners strongly recommend the bearing option--there are many reports of difficulties without, followed by huge improvements with. Don't go too cheap.

BTW, BMW/Oracle used (and uses) a roller-furler--I'll have to warn Larry Ellison that it's hurting his sail shape.

I'll do the same for Mike Hennessy here in Mystic, who races the Class 40 "Dragon" with a furler...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ouch!!! Did I just take a shot there???? <smile>

I suspect those guys have high end furling gear, and have systems optimized to maintain sail shape when furled. Most systems I see do not do that, and the result is the partially furled sail's draft is quite deep instead of being flatter as the wind increases.

Unfurled, a headfoil is a nice thing and certainly makes the sail set well. But most systems I see do not allow you to easily tension the jib halyard to keep the draft forward as the wind increases. I suspect those guy's systems do allow that.

And there is no question if you are single handing in Gulf Stream type conditions or even out on a lake with a storm approaching, a "reliable" furling system is a great safety item.

We are in total agreement on not going cheap! Cheap and reliable, in my experience, do not usually describe the same roller furling system.

Cheers!

Chuck

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3466 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 09:48:40

Right now, I have my old furling rig 150 and old main on my boat. I am bringing my boat in for a waterproofing job next week and I brought my relatively new sails into Quantum last week to have them cleaned and add a sunbrella cover to the furling rig 150 vs the white sail matl cover that is on there right now. I have a CDI furling rig - Not sure about bearings or not but the CDI unit works fairly well and this is an old unit. The unit can get jammed up occasionally but this has happened only a couple of times and I was able to work it free from the cockpit. This happens when the furling line as it wraps onto the drum is wrapped sort of loosely as the sail is unfurled. It can be minimized or eliminated by just being careful when pulling out the sail to watch the drum and ensure the furling line as it winds onto the drum, does so smoothly. Sometimes, the line gets wound onto the top section of the drum and it winds on additionally, those last winds sometimes fall down sort of slack onto the drum. What I do is I will sometimes roll up the sail partially to remove those loose winds and then pull the sail out some more so that all the winds are wound onto the drum smoothly. If heavy winds strike suddenly, that will make it very hard to furl up the sail probably on any furling rig just due to the increased tension needed to wind up a sail when there are heavy winds. Loosening the sheets significantly so that the sail does not fill up with the heavy air will aid in then furling the sail. Still, I find it so much of a benefit sailing with a furling rigged genoa. No trips to the foredeck necessary.

The other thing to be careful about with the CDI unti and perhaps some other furling rigs is when hoisting a sail onto the furling rig. You have to make sure that the messanger line is not twisted around the furling rig foil (or whatever you call it) that you thread the sdail onto when hoisting it. If the line is twisted around the foil, then when raising the sail, it is possible to put a crinkle/bend in the foil and that will make it harder to raise sails in the future.

By the way, the biggest factor that effects heading upwind on a close tack is not necessarily if you have a furling rig but if your head sail is blown out or not. Granted, if you have new sails and one is on a furling rig, the one on a furling rig will probably not enable you to head as close to the wind as without a furling rig. But considering how many are sailing out there with stretched out genoas, that to me is the bigger difference in being able to tack close to the wind. I noticed a big difference between using my new sails vs my old ones.

Edited by - OLarryR on 10/11/2011 09:53:36

NCBrew
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 09:53:04

After reading all of the posts on this subject and thinking I sail around all the time with a hanked on 110 I called National Sails back and had him change the order to a 135 Jenny.

He said the majority of his sales are for the 150. Of course maybe most people get a boat with a 110 or 130 and they now want a bigger sail. He also agreed that if I sail mostly with a 110 it would be more comfortable with a 135.

Most of the time the wind is 10 to 15 knots and most days the wind kicks up around 4 PM out of the South East (on shore breeze) at 15 and up.

Of course we also have those dog days of summer (usually on race day) when it is dead calm. Of course thats swim call and break out the beer.

Edited by - NCBrew on 10/11/2011 09:58:06

pfduffy
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 10:12:49

My new sail this year is a 135 and I am very pleased with it. Very versatile!

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

Members Avatar

USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 10:17:35

I think you've made very good choices. Since adding my stabilizing block on the jib head swivel to prevent wraps, I have never had a problem furling in rambunctious conditions.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3466 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 15:57:32

Enjoy !

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 17:49:15

Patrick, in my opinion you made the right choice going down to the 135. I sail in 10-15 regularly and I use my 110 most of the time. I added a Harken roller furler this past spring and as I mentioned previously it's the best decision I've made since I bought the boat. I'm kicking myself why I didn't do it sooner.

One thing I learned the first time out with the new furler is to keep tension on the furling line. This will keep the furling line from getting tangled and make furling the sail much easier. The first time I unfurled I just pulled on the sheet, the sail filled and opened like a parachute nearly blowing the fore stay off the boat. I had a heck of a time getting the furling line untangled and the sail rolled back in. Since then I've been keeping tension on the furling line and things go in and out very easily.

Also, make sure you rinse off the furler and the bearings with a garden hose. This will keep the salt and dirt from building up on the bearings and will keep the furler operating smoothly. It will also keep the bearings from wearing out prematurely from the dirt and grime.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 18:22:31

Chuck--I'd never take a shot at your experience and knowledge!

I was merely cautioning against (1) a home-made furler, and (2) the cheapest one you can buy. I think we agree on the value of proven, robust systems on a boat.

Brew: I think you got it right! And Gary is exactly right--keeping a little tension on the furling line as you pull out the sail encourages the line to wrap tightly and evenly around the drum, which helps ensure a reliable roll-up. I'll suggest a sailing glove to keep some
"drag" on the line. Another critical variable is the lead angle to the drum, in my case controlled by a block clamped to the bow pulpit. That angle should be "exactly" perpendicular to the axis of the drum so the line doesn't try to bunch up at the top or bottom. The clamp I used allowed me to adjust the block very precisely, which made a big difference.

Get ready to be amazed!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/11/2011 18:54:19

NCBrew
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 18:23:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 I think you've made very good choices. Since adding my stabilizing block on the jib head swivel to prevent wraps, I have never had a problem furling in rambunctious conditions.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I didn't know anything about a stablizing block, What is it and how is it uced.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 19:06:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NCBrew
 I didn't know anything about a stablizing block, What is it and how is it uced.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Here's [url="http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22724"]David's thread on that[/url]. The issue is preventing the top of the swivel on a "conventional" furler from rotating when the bottom does. If that happens, it can cause the halyard that hoists the swivel to wrap around the forestay and damage it.

I don't know about the CDI with its built-in halyard system--that might be different. I suspect CDI provides the appropriate hardware and instructions. Some CDI guys can respond...

Edited by - on

Page: of 4

Topic

Previous Page | Next Page

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.