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NautiC25
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Initially Posted - 11/30/2011 : 12:13:36

I'm a newb to bottom coating, and still researching, but I think what I've read so far is that VC-17 is my best choice. I keep the boat in the lake at all times, and may pull it out once or twice for a trip. I have roller bunks, so I don't think they'll damage the coating as much as flat bunks would.
The boat will probably need a ton of work done before the coating, but I plan to first try my hand at applying the VC-17 to my new rudder. My question is, do I need to apply VC Tar to either the boat or the rudder? There seems to be conflicting information on the web. Some say VC-17 doesn't need it at all, and others say the Tar waterproofs the fiberglass. I don't mind shelling out the work/money for added protection, but I'd hate to not do it and have problems.

1989 C-25 TR/WK #5894
Miss Behavin'
Sittin' in LCYC on Canyon Lake, Texas

Edited by - on

dmpilc
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Response Posted - 11/30/2011 : 12:38:28

Have you checked their web site? The info you are looking for may be there. New rudder? I would also ask the guys you bought the rudder from and see what they say. I haven't ever used VC-17 so my thoughts are worth what you paid for them!
From the Foss web site:
http://newrudders.com/?page_id=4

According to the Jamestown distributors web site, VC Tar is recommended only for bare wood, steel, and lead surfaces:
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=2325&engine=adwords!6456&keyword=vc_17_paint
See "Application and Use" section.

Edited by - dmpilc on 11/30/2011 13:26:02

pastmember
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Response Posted - 11/30/2011 : 13:20:48

No you do not need the tar. I have never used it, no one I know has ever used it.
I use VC 17 plus a lot, so do most people I know at our lake.
If we put down a barrier coat first we use INTERLUX
InterProtect® 2000E Barrier Coat System.

Edited by - on

NautiC25
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Response Posted - 11/30/2011 : 13:53:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 Have you checked their web site? The info you are looking for may be there. New rudder? I would also ask the guys you bought the rudder from and see what they say. I haven't ever used VC-17 so my thoughts are worth what you paid for them!
From the Foss web site:
http://newrudders.com/?page_id=4

According to the Jamestown distributors web site, VC Tar is recommended only for bare wood, steel, and lead surfaces:
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=2325&engine=adwords!6456&keyword=vc_17_paint
See "Application and Use" section.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Why do the instructions say to apply directly over bare fiberglass? Don't you need a waterproofing barrier coat first? VC-17 doesn't have waterproofing protection does it? I thought it was just an antifouler.

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dmpilc
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Response Posted - 11/30/2011 : 14:00:14

I thought I read in other threads here that the factory applied a barrier coat on the 89 boats so be careful removing {all of} the current antifouling paint in preparation for applying the VC-17. You don't want to remove the barrier coat too. On your new rudder, a barrier coat may not be necessary. That's why I suggested contacting the mfgr.

Edited by - dmpilc on 11/30/2011 14:03:21

OJ
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Response Posted - 11/30/2011 : 14:38:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NautiC25
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Why do the instructions say to apply directly over bare fiberglass? Don't you need a waterproofing barrier coat first? VC-17 doesn't have waterproofing protection does it? I thought it was just an antifouler.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">FWIW, over "gel coat" would be techically more accurate . . .

I believe the water barrier you select is impacted by the type of water you're in . . . salt, brackish, fresh.

You are correct, VC-17 is not a water barrier.

I used Interlux System 2000E + VC-17 several years ago and the current owner is was very pleased with the barrier and continues to apply a fresh coat of VC-17 every year.

If you're in the water all year - I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to apply a water barrier

Good luck!

Edited by - OJ on 11/30/2011 14:39:35

dlucier
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Response Posted - 11/30/2011 : 15:03:32

Indeed, VC17m does not provide any barrier coat properties. As to VC Tar2, yes, it is made for fiberglass barrier coating and according to Interlux, is the ideal primer base for VC17m.

From the Interlux website...

PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
VC Tar2 is a 2-component epoxy primer providing osmosis protection to GRP boats and anticorrosive protection to steel and alloy surfaces. For use below
water only.
* Self-levelling to give an excellent finish
* Easy to apply - overcoatable within hours
* No sanding required between coats
* Offers excellent barrier to water for osmosis protection and treatment
* Ideal primer base for all VC antifoulings

Edited by - on

OJ
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Response Posted - 11/30/2011 : 18:36:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 . . . Self-levelling to give an excellent finish . . .
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">This could be a distinct advantage over System 2000E as I ended up with stipling.

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 11/30/2011 : 18:46:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OJ
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 . . . Self-levelling to give an excellent finish . . .
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">This could be a distinct advantage over System 2000E as I ended up with stipling.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Some racers use VC Tar as a barrier coat for that reason. System 2000E can be smoothed considerably by sanding between coats, but not as much as VC Tar. Also, VC Tar can be removed more easily than 2000E. It dissolves fairly easily with a fiberglass paint stripper. VC Tar isn't very sandable. Like any tar product, the sanding dust rolls into tiny balls and loads up sandpaper quickly. These aren't drawbacks. They're just characteristics of it that you should be aware of if you use it.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 11/30/2011 18:51:55

pastmember
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Response Posted - 11/30/2011 : 19:00:03

No one I know uses VC Tar, no one. There are probably 50 boats at my club with VC 17 on them, some over gelcoat, some over epoxy barrier coat, none over VC tar. A product's web site is not always the place to learn how to use a product, sometimes it is simply a place to learn what they want you to buy. The reason none of us use tar is it is difficult to work with and more difficult to remove. Interlux 2000 is easy in both regards. Also, remember that VC 17 is so slick and smooth that your bottom will seem miraculous to you... without a perfectly smooth and faired bottom. It's a Catalina 25 for crying out loud, not an Olympic One Design. The point of VC 17 on our boats is 3 fold, good anti fouling, ease of use, and EASE OF USE, (speed is a freebie side effect). Bottom painting becomes little more than washing your boat and painting, an hour max, then you can launch within minutes. My current boat has VC 17 over gelcoat and I have no concerns about a lack of barrier coat because the boat is 25 years old without a single blister, (it also sits on a trailer every winter). sometimes things really are as easy as they sound. I do agree with OJ, if a boat is in the water year round a barrier coat is probably best, but your '89 should have one. I would be amazed if there are not a lot of boats at Canyon with VC 17, I am willing to bet that if you talk to them they will be happy to tell you what they have done. As an aside, what you really need is a magic rudder that can keep up with the crazy wind patterns on Canyon, that place is nuts!

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OJ
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Response Posted - 11/30/2011 : 19:16:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 . . . It's a Catalina 25 for crying out loud, not an Olympic One Design . . .
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">But, but, but Frank! That stipling had to have cost me a tenth of a knot, if not a hair more!

Yep, we are talking a about a pocket cruiser. But, officially sanctioned or not - I certainly find myself racing everytime I sail near another, similar sized boat!

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 11/30/2011 : 19:22:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 No one I know uses VC Tar, no one.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Frank is correct that you don't need to used VC Tar as a matter of course. VC Tar is a barrier coat that can be used as an alternative to System 2000E. If you feel your boat needs a barrier coat, VC Tar is an alternative to Systen 2000E, and it produces a smoother surface than 2000E.

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 11/30/2011 : 19:32:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 No one I know uses VC Tar, no one. There are probably 50 boats at my club with VC 17 on them, some over gelcoat, some over epoxy barrier coat, none over VC tar. The reason none of us use tar is it is difficult to work with and more difficult to remove.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If no one you know uses VCTar2, and I mean no one, how do you know it is difficult to work with and even more difficult to remove?

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pastmember
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Response Posted - 11/30/2011 : 19:55:29

The Catalina Dealer here has done a lot of our bottoms and sold product to most of the rest of us, we are a little market. He is my source on problems using tar. In the early days of tar he of course tried it and says he will not put it on a boat, his attitude has convinced a lot of good sailors. That no one at the club has decided to go against his advice, (even though sailor love to be contrary), says a lot.

Don, FWIW, anytime I post after you I am always concerned you will feel like I am intending to disagree with you, because my experiences are so different from yours; rather instead, you and Steve are why I so often say that the venue is so important. Just as I believe what I post, I always respect and admire your positions because I know they represent your knowledge and are reliable advice.

Edited by - pastmember on 11/30/2011 19:57:07

dlucier
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Response Posted - 11/30/2011 : 21:21:58

Frank,

I never feel like you are intending to disagree with me or anyone. For the most part we think alike, and sometimes not, but that's what so great about the forum, the exchange of differing opinions and ideas.

Now back to VCTar2. I used it and like Interprotect, it is a two part epoxy barrier coat. Like the website says, one of it's virtues is that it's easy to apply and for me it was a non-event. As to being difficult to remove, why would anyone want to remove a barrier coat?

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NautiC25
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Response Posted - 12/01/2011 : 06:23:40

Thanks for the help. Keep it coming cause it's really taught me a lot so far.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 Frank,
As to being difficult to remove, why would anyone want to remove a barrier coat?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's the same question I had when I first read the comment. The boat wasn't in great shape when I got her, but I plan to apply the barrier coat once and keep up with the yearly recoatings like everyone brags about. What do I care if the next owner has to remove it for some reason? lol

Frank, as a newb, I definately have a few hard times at Canyon. I'm actually docked by the damn where the wind seems to go all different directions. After several people mentioning the same thing to me, I don't feel so bad. But, I still look like I'm having trouble to my wife and friends. lol

Edited by - NautiC25 on 12/01/2011 06:31:36

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 12/01/2011 : 06:57:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> As to being difficult to remove, why would anyone want to remove a barrier coat?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I have applied and removed both System 2000 and VC Tar. At different times, I used each of them on the cast iron keel of my C25, to seal it from rust, and later removed them to refinish the keel. Both can be removed with paint stripper, but VC Tar is much easier to remove than System 2000, because the paint stripper liquefies VC Tar fairly quickly, and, once liquefied, it can be wiped off without scraping. System 2000 forms a hard shell, and it takes numerous applications of chemical stripper to soften it and scrape it off.

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OJ
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Response Posted - 12/01/2011 : 07:19:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> As to being difficult to remove, why would anyone want to remove a barrier coat?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I have applied and removed both System 2000 and VC Tar . . . <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Wow, Steve - now that is a labor of love for your boat.

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OJ
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Response Posted - 12/01/2011 : 07:59:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 . . . Catalina Dealer here has done a lot of our bottoms . . . he is my source on problems using tar . . . he of course tried it and says he will not put it on a boat . . .
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Frank, do you think he didn't like VC Tar becuase it was tricky (inconvenient) to apply or simply not a good product?

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 12/01/2011 : 08:52:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OJ
Wow, Steve - now that is a labor of love for your boat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Nothing was too good for my baby. She gave me her heart and soul on the race course, and I gave her mine every spring, in my back yard.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 12/01/2011 08:54:17

glivs
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Response Posted - 12/01/2011 : 11:22:53

I assume gel coat evolved somewhat through the years as more was learned about the pros and cons of fiberglass hulls. What we do know, however, is that beginning in 1989, Catalina begin adding a polyvinyl ester barrier coat to minimize osmotic blistering (see LarryO's separate postings on that topic). That, however, is why sanding is not recommended when prepping the bottom under many circumstances for the newer boats. Granted the warranty was 10 years and most of our boats are far beyond that, but it might not hurt to contact Catalina to ask whether they recommend adding a new barrier coat on top of the original and how either the Interlux or the VC Tar will interact with the original.

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pastmember
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Response Posted - 12/01/2011 : 11:43:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OJ
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 . . . Catalina Dealer here has done a lot of our bottoms . . . he is my source on problems using tar . . . he of course tried it and says he will not put it on a boat . . .
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Frank, do you think he didn't like VC Tar becuase it was tricky (inconvenient) to apply or simply not a good product?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Could be, I know he tried to sand the tar off rather than use stripper.

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OJ
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Response Posted - 12/01/2011 : 17:47:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OJ
Wow, Steve - now that is a labor of love for your boat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Nothing was too good for my baby. She gave me her heart and soul on the race course, and I gave her mine every spring, in my back yard.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">This reminds me of a story my uncle told me about my father after his passing. My dad was a sales engineer for GE for over 40 years. With all the traveling he would sometimes spend the weekend at his brother's place in Golden, CO. During one visit they were stripping tile off the kitchen floor and his brother paused to ask "how do you suppose we know how to do this?" My dad paused momentarily, shrugged his shoulders in his usual sheepish way and (referring to their Danish roots) replied "must be all the boats our ancestors built."

I absolutely love working on my boat - I feel it's in my genes.

Now how's that for hijacking a thread!?!

Edited by - on

NautiC25
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Response Posted - 12/22/2011 : 12:42:37

Well, it looks like the VC Tar2 has been discontinued! Doh! It's too bad cause it really sounded like a good product. :(

So, I'm gonna have to go with the 2000E and then VC-17. I called Jamestown to ask about the TAR and they also highly recommended going with the 2000E under the VC-17.

Edited by - NautiC25 on 12/22/2011 12:46:00

NautiC25
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Response Posted - 12/28/2011 : 06:24:23

I want to be sure I'm doing this correctly. Is this what you guys did?

"When overcoating with VC 17m or VC 17m Extra allow Interprotect 2000E to dry for 24 – 36 hours, then sand with 180-220 grit sand paper."

So that means the 2000E just needs to be fully dried, or can be left on for days before overcoating? I haven't ordered the VC-17 yet, but want to get started on the 2000E right now.

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OJ
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Response Posted - 12/28/2011 : 06:50:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NautiC25
 I want to be sure I'm doing this correctly. Is this what you guys did?

"When overcoating with VC 17m or VC 17m Extra allow Interprotect 2000E to dry for 24 – 36 hours, then sand with 180-220 grit sand paper."

So that means the 2000E just needs to be fully dried, or can be left on for days before overcoating? I haven't ordered the VC-17 yet, but want to get started on the 2000E right now.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Hi Jonathan,

The only vital time frame I recall was between coats of the 2000E to maintain the chemical linking.

180-220 sounds a tad light - 2000E is like sanding concrete. By the time you are done sanding it will be ready for overcoating.

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