Association Forum - new mainsail

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

new mainsail

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

hewebb
Admiral

Member Avatar

USA
761 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/16/2012 : 06:08:39

I am thinking about buying a new mainsail. I want two reef points as the current sail has. Any suggestions as to where the best buy is for a good sail? I am not opposed to a used one if it is in like new condition, however, I would think a used one would not be any better than the one I have. The other thought is taking the sail to a loft it get it redone. The material appears to still be in good condition but a little dirty and stretched.

1988 WK/SR w/inboard diesel Joe Pool Lake
Hobie 18 Lake Worth

Life is not a dress rehearsal. You will not get another chance.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2012 : 08:10:34

Do you know if it's original to the boat? IF it is, it might be time for a new one. A couple of years ago I sent my mainsail to [url="http://www.sailcare.com/"]Sailcare[/url] and was pleased with the results. They'll inspect your sail and make a recommendation about cleaning/treating it versus replacement. If I recall correctly, it cost around $300 for cleaning, slug replacement and new lettering.

I bought a new headsail from [url="http://www.nationalsail.com/"]National Sail Supply[/url] in Florida. It's a Rolly Tasker sail made in Thailand. I like it. The price was reasonable. If you decide you want a new main, I'd recommend them.

Edited by - on

szymek
Navigator

Members Avatar

Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2012 : 10:15:53

I'm in the same market right now. Currently Catalina Direct seems to have 15% sale on Ullman offshore sails. Main listed on the site is around 870 (of top of my head). Although it's only with 1 reef. To be honest i think single reef is more than enough.

I got two other quotes (i need to dig through email to confirm prices):
UK Halsey: around 1300
LeeSails: around 1000

Does anyone have any feedback on Ullman sail through CD???

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2012 : 10:37:29

Unless you go the "full custom" route Ullman sails are considered "top shelf" in Southern Califronia.

Edited by - on

panhead1948
Captain

Members Avatar

345 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2012 : 11:25:54

Well I'll throw my 3 cents in. I got a new main and 135 from Island plant sail for 1200.

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1778 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2012 : 12:57:45

If you do a search in the archives you will see many, many threads on this very topic including very recent ones. I am on the east coast but still found Gary at Ullman/Ventura the most competetive and the quality is excellent. There are other fine lofts with good pricing as well.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2012 : 13:58:26

[url="http://www.nsd.northsails.com/product/tabid/62/productid/117/sename/cat25-m-catalina-25-mainsail/default.aspx"]North C25 Main $725.00

Edited by - on

hewebb
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2012 : 15:11:39

North C25 Main $725.00

How much to add additional reef?

Delivery time?

Currently Catalina Direct seems to have 15% sale on Ullman offshore sails. Main listed on the site is around 870 (of top of my head). Although it's only with 1 reef. To be honest i think single reef is more than enough.

I would use CD but would like sail before March. I have used the second reef twice this year.

Edited by - on

hinmo
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
248 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2012 : 16:18:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by panhead1948
 Well I'll throw my 3 cents in. I got a new main and 135 from Island plant sail for 1200.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Panhead - what weight were the sails? Do you like them, seems like a good deal (was that a luff tape headsail?) Where is Island plant? I googled them with no luck

thx

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3467 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2012 : 17:08:23

The Mack Sail website has a lot of info regarding quality of sails - The differences in sailcloth. Rcmd search for their website and explore the info.

I bought Quantum Sails and they cost a bundle - bout 4 years ago with the main and the 150 furling rigged Genoa, each over $1000 at that time. The sails are great and made with low stretch Dacron sailcloth - See past posting threads on sals using the forum's search engine. Quantum came down and took the measurements, discussed the type of sailing and frequency that I go sailing. I only wanted 1 reef point about mid-point between what is usually provided for those that get 2 reef points. They designed the sails out of the Annapolis office and then had them made up by their South Africa shop. I then picked them up in Annapolis.

Many have bought sails thru the web or via phone. Many have purchased what would be considered stock sails. Even in those instances, many of the sailmakers/distributors may want you to take measurements that they request to confirm that the sails they provide are indeed correctly sized (ie. std vs tall rig, etc). Many that have purchased this way thru sailmakers that have been recommended by others have been satisfied. I also note that as has been already mentioned, Catalina Direct just sent an EMail that they have a 15% off sail on Ullman sails.

I do encourage you to at least check out the Mack Sail website so you get at least some info on the differences between one sailmaker's Dacron sails compared to another. Dacron Sails are not all the same and so even if two sailmakers have identical prices and one sail is a heavier weight than the other, that alone is not enough info to make an informed decision. The fact is that some sailmakers use a lower cost, lower density thread count dacron with a heavier coat of resin vs other mfrs that may provide a dacron sail that is of a higher grade dacron sailcloth made to a higher density thread count using a lower stretch weave with a higher tensile thread for stitching it up. Those sails may have a lighter resin coat but their weight more determined by the higher density thread count.

I mention this because Dacron sails will last a long time with some out there still using the original sails that came with the boat, however, Dacron stretches each year it is used and the lower Dacron grades may get blown out in say 4-5 years while the higher Dacron grades may take years longer and probably will never get stretched to the same degree as the lower Dacron grades.

But cost is an important factor and I acknowledge that almost all on this forum seems to indicate that regardless with what they bought they have been satisfied. (Very few exceptions.)

Still, a popular sailmaker name brand is not the only reason why they may have what is considered inflated prices. You obviously will pay more if a local sailmaker takes measurments directly off your boat and custom makes the sail. But cost is also driven by the Dacron grade used. For example, at time I purchased my sails, many sailmakers were offering Dacron Sails made out of Challenge Dacron sailcloth and there were 4 grades of Challenge Dacron sailcloth: Performance, High Modulus, High Aspect and Marblehead. My sails are made of High Aspect. many sails bought stock are made of either Performance or High Modulus sailcoth. High Aspect and Marblehead are the lower stretch Dacron Grades and they can be made up with the lower stretch stitching that accompanies it. Mack sails and Quantum are two mfrs that oftentimes will offer Challenge High Aspect sailcoth in their price quote but will also sell at least in one grade lower as well. Some of the sailmakers also utilize Dimension Polyant dacron sailcloth, however, I was never able to see the specs on that matl nor if they offer it in different grades. Challenge has a website with all their dacron grades, specs and tensile charts.....but most I can understand will not look into all these details. So...then best to go with what has worked well for others. But just wanted to make you aware that there is info out there if you want to research what one sailmaker is offering in sailcloth vs another.

Edited by - OLarryR on 11/16/2012 17:12:34

panhead1948
Captain

Members Avatar

345 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2012 : 18:32:35

Try islandplanetsails.com I got their name from post on this forum maybe two years ago. The main is a loose footed main with a full length top batten and longer three battens. I believe the price was 575. The 135 was for a roller furling sail with a price of 625. I am not a racer I cruise and I am very happy with the sails.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2012 : 18:46:53

Whats wrong with your current main?

You zipped by me pretty quick that day......

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2012 : 18:57:30

I believe the sails CD has on sale for 15% off through Tuesday are from their Offshore series. If I remember correctly it's 6.5 oz cloth? I believe the email I received said the cloth was from US or European lofts? Loose foot partial or full batten main, draft stripes, etc... standard.

You do have to wait until March to receive your sails but you only have to pay half now and the balance at the time they ship. I'm thinking about a new main and 135.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2012 : 01:29:40

Check with your local lofts. I got a new main for my C-25 from Ballard Sails here in Seattle for less than what the big lofts like Ullman and North were charging.

I have a North sail on my new boat and the Ballard Sail is more nicely made. The cloth and stitching quality are similar, but the Ballard Sail has much nicer hollow tapered battens and I really like how the loose foot is attached to the boom (a huge sliding velcro strap that will never fail...simple and effective).

Working with a local loft gave me good service too. When I need new sails for my current boat I'll likely go with them again, but there are 3 or 4 lofts within walking distance of my slip (including Ballard) so I'm sure that I'll investigate a few options.

Edited by - on

hewebb
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2012 : 04:50:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Whats wrong with your current main?

You zipped by me pretty quick that day......<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

In light air there is a wrinkle in it that I have to tighten the Cunningham to get out which makes me think it is stretched out of shape.

Edited by - on

wegman
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
35 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2012 : 11:52:22

As Gary and others point out, there are a lot more issues to consider than just price. In addition to quality level, do you want a loose footed main, or a conventional one? Full battens, partial battens, or a combination e.g. full top battens and partial lower battens? Tapered battens? Regarding one reef or two, something to consider is that with your standard rig, compared with the tall rig, you are already sailing with the equivalent of a first reef tucked in. And two reefs means additional rigging, lines and complexity. I know this is controversial, but I agree with Hewebb that one deep reef is enough with a standard rig.

Edited by - on

hewebb
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2012 : 06:11:58

I checked with the local loft and a sail from them will run about $1500.00 to get what I think I want. I have sent a message to CD to see where the sail will be made. Being an old retired fart I don't think I will spend the extra dollars to get a sail that will out last the sailor.

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2012 : 08:51:30

Try John Bartlett in Austin, TX. I got excellent service from him.
http://www.bartlettsails.com/

Edited by - NautiC25 on 11/20/2012 08:52:01

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2012 : 12:43:44

I second GaryB's suggestion. John Bartlette builds fantastic sails and will even add a big roach if you desire (still class legal).
He is a little more expensive than getting a "stock" sail but well worth it (especially if you race!)

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2012 : 12:49:22

Bartlett does make very good sails. Very popular with the C-22 crowd. Also check out Waters Sails and Gus Sails.

I've also had good experience with National Sail Supply, Island Planet Sails, and The Sail Warehouse. All three were Rolly Tasker vendors, but I heard that Island Planet makes their own now.

Edited by - dmpilc on 11/20/2012 12:54:05

hinmo
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
248 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2012 : 06:53:57

panhead - I sent you an email

Edited by - on

szymek
Navigator

Members Avatar

Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2012 : 18:37:04

Wow Mack Sails has lots of good info!

I've contacted bunch of sailmakers and usual quote is around 1k up to 1,450. Catalina Direct(Ullman) and North Sails seem to be best deals.

Tomorrow or Tuesday is last day to get the promo from Catalina Direct. The promo prices are:
Partial battens: $751
Full battens: $713

I still quite don't grasp the difference between the partial battens vs full batten. My understanding is that partial batten will give bit more control over the sail. But apparently full battens sails are easier to set - i don't get that.

Also the sail is loose footed - i have no experience sailing with loose footed main, but seems to be quite popular.

One more thing:
I measured foot and luff of my current sail. Luff: 23'9" Foot: 9'1". However I measured the distance on the boom from tack to the black marker on the boom (which i learned that's the maximum foot length) and it's 10'1". As per the Catalina's specs the foot should be at 9'7". Do they allow 6" in case sail stretches? my sail seems to be original as it has Catalina yachts logo by the tack, but i wonder how come the foot length is 9'1" - i thought sail would stretch not shrink over the years.

I plan on placing the order on Monday - any last minute recommendation?

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2012 : 22:28:13

This article starting on page 3 is a good review:
http://www.porttownsendsails.com/pdf/mainsails.pdf

I don't know if the CD/Ullman full batten sails have increased roach compared to the partial batten sail. Since my C-25 sail with partial battens was still about large enough to hit the backstay I'm guessing that the CD/Ullman full batten sail couldn't reasonably be any larger. My custom C-25 sail had tapered battens which seemed to do a good job of not putting a lot of pressure at the front of the batten pocket. I didn't own that sail long enough to say how well it will hold up though. Ask me in 5 years and I can ask the boat's new owner.

2 of the 3 main sails that I've owned have been loose footed, one has a foot. I like the loose footed sails, it makes it easier to use the outhaul to control the sail shape.

If it were me I'd probably get the partial battens, just because that is what all of the local lofts that I talked to recommended for my uses. Only Ullman/CD seemed to advise full battens.

Both of your measurements look about 6" short. How did you measure the sail?

Edited by - on

Ape-X
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 11/26/2012 : 04:29:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
In light air there is a wrinkle in it that I have to tighten the Cunningham to get out which makes me think it is stretched out of shape.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

could that be the shelf and not a blown out sail? bolt rope foot or loose?

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3467 Posts

Response Posted - 11/26/2012 : 04:37:11

The article you referenced (starting on page 3) summarizes some of the details I provided in my posting above. When one says that they do not need a mainsail that will last say 20 years...bear in mind that almost all Dacron sails will "last" perhaps 20 years. But as I mentioned and as your article touches on just a bit, has to do with the "useful" life. The "useful" life differs depending on the sailing you do and what you are willing to pay for a sail. "Useful" life has to do with when the sails stretch and no longer allow you to close tacking to the wind. For those out there in wide bodies of water and are just basically cruising, "Useful" life may equal as longas the dacron sails "last". Those that either race or some would indicate when there is more than one sailboat out there, they are racing or in some excptions to the bodies of water you sail, for example, river sailing when going up or down river and tacking may become more important as to how close to the wind you can sail, the "useful" life of a sail, having it as many years as possible, is an important factor. Dacron sails will begin to strecth depending on wind conditions, as soon as they are put on the boat. If you sail frequently and on occasion are out there when the winds are fairly significant (15-20mph and greater), the sails will begin to stretch. Dacron sails may stretch significantly within the first 4 years or so. Higher quality Dacron that have lower stretch properties may stretch signficantly in 6 or 7 years. A lot has to do with just what winds you may have faced where the sails were really pushed to their limit. Those that sail infrequently and seem to never be out when wind conditions get a bit dicey, well then significant stretching may take a bit longer. So, a Dacron sail (almost all) will last 20+ years, that is, until the sail really starts to fall apart, tear, etc but it's useful life is much less depending on what kind of sailor you are and if stretch makes a difference in your everyday sailing. As far as the experience for guests, almost all guests will not realize any difference in the performance of your sails unless they are experienced sailors - if this is even any consideration...which really is not. I just mention it because, it really comes down to how picky or performance oriented you are by nature or required by function (racing or close tacking important factor due to frequent tacking in the waters you sail).

The other thing I wanted to mention is the article indicates that "premium" Dacron sails are the best by almost all sailmakers. This is a bit misleading because of the hype sail mfrs put on naming their Dacron Sail matls. Many will use various marketing tags as to what quality they want the consumer to assume is meant by what they call "premium". As I indicated in regards to Challenge sailcloth which is probably used in the making of perhaps 30% or so of the Dacron sails made (and I basically pulled that percentage out of the hat...let's just say many sails are made out of that sail matl). They indicate basically 4 grades of Dacron sail material: Performance, High Modulus, High Aspect and Marblehead. I do not recall but maybe they do indicate what they consider "premium" Dacron. But what I can tell you is that High Aspect and Marblehead are their top grades that have low stretch properites because of the tighter weaves that also allow the use of the high tensile thread matl for making up sails by the sailmakers. I suspect that it is the sailmakers that tag names on the Dacron they use as marketing hype using terms like "premium". So, there is perhaps a difference between the terms a sailcoth mfr uses and the sailmaker uses but they both definitely know what specific dacron matl is going into making up your sails and sailcloth mfrs like Challenge have the specs on the web. You do not have to go by hyped up terms like 'premium". You can ask what specifically is the sailcoth mfr and the cloth grade used and the weave since within each grade there are different weaves. (I know...this is getting way too complicated and you just want to go sailing.) By they way...Challenge sailcoth "Performance" which would seem to impart great sail matl is actually the least expensive weave and most prone to stretching. A heavier weight Challenge "Perfomance" grade sailcloth makes up the difference with extra resin that has limited life to preventing stretch which will occur in the lower thread count sailcloths.

So, the real question when we throw names around like Ullman, Catalina Direct, FX, etc is what sailcoth are they using and there is a way that you can compare one sailmakers $750 sail to another being offered at $750. It comes down to not that one does not need a sail that will last fro 20 years but is there a way to compare apples to apples no matter what price range you are considering. That is the real question ...and not easy to assess.

That is why it is sometimes easier to just go by what has worked well for others...

Edited by - OLarryR on 11/26/2012 04:52:34

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 11/26/2012 : 09:41:56

Catalina Direct sails are Ullman sails.

I believe they are made with Challenge High Modulus SoftCloth, but you can call Catalina to check. Specs are here on page 2:
http://challengesailcloth.com/pdf/cat_2.pdf

Look at the 6.53 oz weight.

This is the same fabric that North Sails recommended for my C-25 sail and that my local loft used when I ordered a custom sail.

Edited by - on

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.