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C25 Achillies Heel?

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Arlington
Navigator

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USA
196 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/18/2012 : 21:09:11

I know I have seen on this Forum or another, the 'reasons' C25's are not good for blue water sailing is:
1. the pop top is prone to failure in the event of a knock down
2. the rudder is subject to snapping in two pieces
3. the standing rigging is weak
4. during a knock down, the swing keel can punch a hole in the hull,

Okay, This doesn't seem to add up.
1. The C25 pop top has four anchor points, secured with eight connections. Where is the weakness? It seems wisdom would prevail, and just because you can sail with the pop top open, you should not do so in anything other than light winds. Is there any documentation of a secured pop top failing?
2. With a balanced rudder, ...so far with my best sail in sustained 30 mph winds with gusts to 40, with two reefs in the main and the furling Genny reduced to about 40%; I couldn't 'feel' any weakness in the tiller, the boat felt solid, and handled great.
3. My standing rigging already has the Catalina Direct upgrade installed with the improved backing plates for the lower stays, and the upper stays are bolted through the deck, with four bolts securing each of the chain plates to the bulkhead. Then check out T Curan's post with photo on the General Sailing Forum A New Method for Haul Out http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=25931
4.The possibility of a swing keel, swinging back and forth seems to be a characteristic of ALL boats with a Swing Keel. But again has this actually happened? On the other hand, for all the fin and wing keel folks this would seem to be a non-issue.

Can you help me out here? I am new to the C25, but what am I missing? I am not planning any trans oceanic crossings, but the C25 seems to be seaworthy, and I am not seeing why we shouldn't have a high degree of confidence in the boat.

God created the Seas as a blessing to Sailors.
Doug, Jenny & First Mate Taylor, Arlington TX
No. 5842 "Promise"�
1989 C25, TR/WK, Inboard Diesel,
1995 Stratos 278, 115 HP Evinrude
1978 14' Dolphin Sr.

Edited by - Arlington on 11/19/2012 06:38:10

Ape-X
Admiral

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662 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2012 : 05:02:20

i would guess it is more with the overall design and overall light weight boat.

pop top: have seen concerns as well as an upgrade, adding more locking points.
rudder: is a matter of maintenance
rigging: first i've heard, and TCuran provides a whole new perspective
swing keel: I would guess common on all boats of that type, that is why i wanted a fin (maintnenance)

Edited by - on

awetmore
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Response Posted - 11/19/2012 : 05:56:33

It is easy to imagine scenarios in which the pop-top failure could occur. Once it occurred it would be dangerous.

Here is an example: pop-top is secured, sailing in large seas with high wind and the boat is a bit overcanvassed. A mistake causes the boat to broach and while it's down a rogue wave crosses the boat and puts a high load on the pop-top. It is only held in place with 2 locking points (that was stock on our 1984 boat) and pops open. The next wave starts to fill the cabin with water.

That is extremely unlikely, but would be a very bad scenario.

The bulkhead structure matters as much as the chainplates for standing rigging strength on the C-25 since the chainplates are secured to a bulkhead. If that bulkhead is pulled out of position then that could be really bad for the standing rigging. If you compare the C-25 to higher end boats you'll notice that the way that the bulkhead is tied into the boat's hull appears to be stronger on the other boats (since I'm not a naval architect I'm not going to say that it is stronger).

However none of this had me concerned as an owner of a C-25. It isn't a boat designed for multi-day crossings and I never expected to do those in the C-25. For coastal cruising where you can pay attention to the weather and get out of the way before major issues the C-25 is a great boat. We enjoyed owning one and did use it on one moderate length trip in some rough conditions and it did great.

Edited by - on

Voyager
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Response Posted - 11/19/2012 : 06:14:33

Don't forget the crib boards falling out. Even if the poptop stayed on, if the slider moved a wee bit forward your companionway boards could take off in a knockdown. Some have added sliding bolt-type locks or pins to the topmost board to keep them in place, but there are three boards and no secure interlocking mechanism.
An open slider alone could allow a good deal of water in. There's no pin on it except the hasp, and I never sail with the slider closed and the crib boards in. Maybe I should in nasty weather.
Then there's the port side fender locker, aka the dumpster. On a big roll, if it were to open, and if some green water came over the transom, you could be in trouble. I always sail with it bolted shut.
I agree on the rudder and don't know much about a swing keel.

Edited by - Voyager on 11/19/2012 06:23:09

Davy J
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Response Posted - 11/19/2012 : 06:23:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">. during a knock down, the swing keel can punch a hole in the hull, <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I've heard that mentioned here before, but does anyone know of an actual incident of this?

The biggest negative, to me, to the C25, offshore, is the outboard motor. Large breaking swells would make the outboard useless.

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 11/19/2012 : 07:55:53

<>

I have all the confidence in the world in the Catalina 25 design... I just understand what this 25ft boat is made for, and it's not ocean crossings.

The knockdown, and swing keel cracking through the hull would be pretty difficult on a catalina 25 given the way they round up so well. It could happen and you want to be aware of it but not in any water I would be out in.

Achillies Heel???? The Captain!

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 11/19/2012 : 08:00:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Arlington
 I am not planning any trans oceanic crossings, but the C25 seems to be seaworthy, and I am not seeing why we shouldn't have a high degree of confidence in the boat.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Is the C25 seaworthy? Obviously. Do I have a high degree of confidence in it? Yes, for my my sailing venue (Lake Erie). Would I round Cape Horn with it? Uh, no.

I'm not sure what you are getting at?

Edited by - dlucier on 11/19/2012 08:00:55

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 11/19/2012 : 08:12:41

Everything is relative. Relatively speaking, the C25 is more rugged and more seaworthy than many lesser boats, but it isn't designed and built to the same standards as a Flicka, for example, which is a 20' boat built to sail in blue water. If the Flicka was caught in a storm with 20' seas and square waves, it would probably survive if it fell off the top of a wave, because it is built strong enough to retain it's structural and watertight integrity. If a C25 fell off a 20' wave, it's doubtful that it would survive it. The pop top might fail, or the swing keel, or the rudder, and, once a boat loses it's maneuverability, it is completely at the mercy of the seas. It's only remaining function is as a lifeboat, and it can only continue to serve that function as long as it remains watertight. One of the tip-offs regarding the vulnerability of the pop top was when I washed the decks of my C25, and found that a great deal of water got past the pop top seals and inside the boat when I turned the hose on the pop top. If the boat was inverted or the decks were awash by breaking waves, a great deal of water would get inside the boat.

As you have pointed out, if you tuck in a double reef, a C25 can sail nicely in 30 kt winds, but it isn't high winds that present the greatest hazard to a sailboat - it is big seas. Dangerous seas are generally not encountered on an inland lake or bay, and when they are encountered, shelter is within reach. When dangerous waves are encountered on the open seas, there's no place to hide. The boat must be strong enough to withstand them, or you'll have to resort to a life raft. In blue water, the boat must not only be strong enough to withstand more severe conditions, but it must be be able to withstand incessant pounding for as much as 2-3 days before they return to normal.

If you look at the construction of a blue water boat, you'll see a great deal of difference in it's strength. The chainplates will be much more robust and no weaknesses will be evident. The hull of a C25 appears to be approximately 1/4" thick. I have seen hull cores cut out of blue water boats that are closer to 2" thick. The rudder will be attached to the boat by massive cast bronze pintles and gudgeons, instead of thin, stamped stainless steel ones. Every element of the boat's design and construction will be aimed at maximizing it's strength.

I have never heard of a C25 with a pop top that failed, but I have heard of many instances in which hatches, ports and the whole coach roof were swept off much bigger, sturdier boats by massive waves. It probably would happen to C25s with some frequency if there were many C25 owners who were reckless enough to sail them offshore in storms. Likewise, I never saw a chainplate ripped out of a C25, but I have seen chainplates ripped out of the decks of much sturdier blue water boats, and it would certainly happen if people sailed C25s offshore in storms.

I only recall one instance in which a swing keel boat suffered a knock down and the keel retracted and the boat sank. That was C25 forum member Derek Crawford's C22. Once again, it would certainly happen more often if people sailed their C25s offshore in storms. Even big boats get rolled over in major storms. I recall that Sir Frances Chichester had his 57' boat rolled over twice on the way to Australia. If it had a swing keel similar to a C25, it would almost certainly not have survived the first roll over, let alone the second one. I also recall a 54' custom designed Hunter that pitchpoled in the Southern Ocean, and had it's fixed keel ripped off.

The swing keel, pop top C25 is designed and built for cruising on inland lakes and bays and along the coast, where shelter is available. You're right that it is up to that task, and more, but it isn't up to extended offshore sailing.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 11/19/2012 08:18:53

cshaw
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Response Posted - 11/19/2012 : 08:38:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 Everything is relative. Relatively speaking, the C25 is more rugged and more seaworthy than many lesser boats, but it isn't designed and built to the same standards as a Flicka, for example, which is a 20' boat built to sail in blue water.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Steve,

Your reply is excellent!

As far as folks saying its low odds, well, I think I would agree with that. But.....unless you have been offshore in really bad weather (I have been caught in a hurricane off of Cabo san Lucas on a 35ft boat and I have rolled the masthead of my Catalina 27 I had before Confetti into the water when we broached entering the harbor at Ventura, CA, and have experienced standing waist deep in water while standing by the mast on the 27 when a rogue wave washed over us off shore of Santa Barbara), then you have NO idea of the power of the sea.... I do not make any claims to have "extensive" off shore heavy weather experience, and yes, I think a Catalina 25 is a relatively seaworthy boat for the conditions they were designed to sail in and I suspect Confetti is a lot stronger than I am for sure..... But I would certainly take Steve's comments to heart, and then if you want to pay your nickle and take your chances, then go for it and have fun doing it! But you simply cannot be "too" prepared when sailing off shore IMHO.....

Its kinda like the old aviation saying: Aviation is not inherently dangerous, but is extreamly intolerant of carelessness. I think the same applies to offshore sailing. Its an amazing and worthwhile experience, but be prepared......

Chuck

Edited by - on

Dave5041
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Response Posted - 11/19/2012 : 09:42:27

Steve pretty much covered it, but what you are calling "offshore" is a factor; out of sight of land is not necessarily offshore.. A ten day passage across the Gulf is not a good idea. A long day or overnight with time to wait for a good weather window is very doable. think Bahamas not Bermuda. 500 miles within 20 miles of the coast with occasional bays, anchorages and marinas is coastal cruising, and that is where Pearl and I are happy.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 11/19/2012 : 13:02:11

Part of the debate has to do with what "blue water" sailing is... Dave B (the other one) has it right--it's not just being over the horizon--it's being out there with no place to hide when things turn into [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQHR1h-MQR0"]this[/url]. If you're a week away from shelter, crossing the Atlantic or sailing to Hawaii, you're going to want a purpose-built blue water cruiser in case the forecast was wrong. (When has that ever happened?)

Edited by - on

wegman
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Response Posted - 11/19/2012 : 13:14:49

Regarding the claim that the standing rigging on a C25 is weak , I suggest this is not the case. Many boats in the same category (lake, bay, near coastal cruising) have only one one pair of lower shrouds. The C25 has both fore and aft lower shrouds. This provides more stability and strength. Also, many other similar boats have their lower shroud chainplates located well inboard, sometimes on the cabin top. In comparison, the outboard location of the C25 chainplates, near the gunnnels, is an inherently stronger location. It does, of course, sacrifice somewhat the ability to sheet the jib in more closely to the wind, but this is tradeoff in favor of strength over performance. I agree that the C25 is not a blue water boat, but it is more than adequate for its purpose.

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 11/19/2012 : 13:32:55

I've got a pair of winter boots that keep my feet warm when shoveling snow, sledding, or just working outside and they do a pretty good job. Would they be adequate for a month long trek to the south pole? I don't think so.

Edited by - on

cshaw
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Response Posted - 11/19/2012 : 15:09:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 Steve pretty much covered it, but what you are calling "offshore" is a factor; out of sight of land is not necessarily offshore..
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

OK guys, I do not mind being thought of as probably way too cautious and giving very conservative advice. My advice simply comes from what I have experienced. Both examples I gave with what happened with my Cat 27 were most certainly not "offshore" since I was within 5 miles of the coast, but even if you prefer to call that "Coastal" conditions, I might as well have been offshore if things had failed. And the weather in both instances when I left was fine and predicted to stay that way.

I think everyone agrees that a Cat 25 is a very good boat (I would not have sailed mine for 36 years if it wasn't), and I also think everyone agrees it is simply not designed to be sailed in "offshore" heavy weather conditions, even though if you are fortunate you can get away with it if you get caught (I am living proof). So yes, to answer Arlington's original question we SHOULD have confidence in them "when sailed in the conditions they were designed to be sailed in"....

The rigging is certainly not sub standard, but it is most certainly not "oversized" like the heavier built coastal cruisers have (I had a perfectly normal and maintained barrel turnbuckle literally "explode" while sailing on Galveston Bay, would that perhaps also have happened with oversized rigging also? Maybe...) And the Pop Top is not "Failure Prone" during a knockdown, but I would not trust those two latches that are simply screwed in to not fail if Confetti was broached like my Cat 27 was (I was in the Ventura entrance, and not off shore by the way). As far as the rudder feeling "solid", yep mine did too till it snapped in two while reaching in waves between the Channel Islands and Ventura.

Am I just plain unlucky to have a lot of harsh lessons when everyone else seems not to? Maybe, but just maybe because I have been blessed with having sailed a lot and not just on inland waters, or just in "reasonable" conditions, so maybe the percentages have had a chance to actually catch me so I have seen things happen that others simply dismiss as being something really remote...?

So please forgive me for being the resident "Curmudgeon"..... just be aware and prepared for those low probability things, especially when we "push the envelope" for the conditions we find ourselves in no matter if its wind or seas, or anything else, and enjoy your boats!

Chuck

Edited by - cshaw on 11/19/2012 16:41:44

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 11/19/2012 : 20:16:55

I was just five miles "off shore" (off the beach in San Diego), and 10 miles from port, with smoke coming out of the companionway and the "dumpster" on a C-25 (not my own)... I can attest that you suddenly feel a long way out there when something like that happens. But in reality, that's within rescue range with some kind of help typically within several miles. Friends of mine were on the Pacific for almost two weeks straight without seeing another vessel of any kind, headed for Polynesia with a dead diesel and no separate genset. If something goes wrong out there, it's totally up to you. If you can still communicate, you might get help in a few days.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/19/2012 20:18:06

rrick
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Response Posted - 11/19/2012 : 23:29:54

Like that video, surfing conditions! 10 minutes fun, 3 hours later exhausted, after 8 hours of humming Beach Boys cold and drenched traveling 20 knots into the middle of nowhere I wait for the EPERP response (activated 7 hours ago). My point, a Catalina 25 could be kept upright as long as humanly willing?

Edited by - on

hewebb
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Response Posted - 11/20/2012 : 06:01:50

One of our friends was telling us about a friend of his that sailed a Catalina 25 to Hawaii & back. I am sure he was very weather conscious when planning his trip. Would I do it-no. When I drilled a hole in the hull for a speed indicator it was at least 1/2 inch thick. It appears to me that the Catalina 25 is very well built-would it handle a storm in the Atlantic-probably not. As many years as the Catalina 25 has been out sailing if there any problems of historical nature common to the design there should be statistics available to document them. However, a poorly maintained product will fail eventually and there are poorly maintained boats out there.

Edited by - on

cshaw
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Response Posted - 11/20/2012 : 06:39:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by hewebb
 One of our friends was telling us about a friend of his that sailed a Catalina 25 to Hawaii & back.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Is there any way your friend might be able to pass on who their friend was so we can hear about his adventure, and what he might have done in the way of mods, if any, to his C25?

Cheers!

Chuck

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 11/20/2012 : 08:34:05

As I recall, a few years ago, one of our members told us about a C25 that showed up in his marina in California, that the owner said he sailed there from Australia. Some photos were posted, and the boat had lots of DIY modifications, and it was apparently heavily loaded, and floated really low on it's lines. One of the modifications that I remember was that the owner had reinforced the pop top by spanning the opening, inside the boat, with a couple of 2x4s that were through-bolted. It wasn't pretty, but it surely strengthened the pop top. I have no reason to doubt that the story was true.

A C25 is certainly capable of crossing an ocean, with luck, but there are much sturdier, better built boats that are designed for that purpose, and that can withstand a lot more abuse than a C25.

The following is a post on the subject of the swing keel that was made in 2002 by Ken Cave, one of our more experienced and knowledgeable members from the past.

"Three years ago, when we were sailing from Nanaimo to Pender across the Georgia Straits in Canada, we were blown darn near into Howe Sound due to the heavy seas and swells.

When we finally got to Princess Louisa (probably the most beautiful place in the world!) I met an gentleman that owns one of the largest repair shops on the Great Lakes. He told me that he had lost his best friends due to the problems of the swing keel on the Catalina, and has repaired many others due to the same problem.

Problem? In heavy seas, the boat will ride up on a wave, and fall into the trough below, leaving the keel in freefall. When it does catch up with boat, it smashes into the back of the trunk, causing it to break open after around three of these waves, sinking the boat.

What to do? If you get into a problem such as this, pull your sails, and pull up your keel and ride it out. It won't pretty, but you you will live to sail another day!!

If you in an area where you encounter problems of this nature, purchase a "blue-water" boat that will take it. There are plenty out there for $30,000 and less and in good condition!

The Catalina 25 SK is a wonderful boat, but it does have its limitations!"

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Response Posted - 11/20/2012 : 08:39:49

After exactly 1 season on Lake Ontario, which isn't much of a sample size, although we did get out in some heavy winds etc. I can tell you that my list of concerns with this boat in big water are really limited to the pop-top and the hatchboards.

Were I planning on anything crazy like extended offshore stuff, I would seriously think about epoxying the bottom hatchboard in place (we often leave it in anyways) and replacing the two top boards with one piece of lexan or similar which could be affixed to the now-permanent bottom board. I would keep th emiddle hatchboard on board since it is great to sail with it in and the top one out if you need to talk to someone down below in drizzly crappy weather.

Skittering down large waves with only a little control, and seeing the next one rearing up behind you gets you thinking about the risks if the boat gets pooped/rolled/broaches.

The pop-top is not a risk in the sense that it is going to magically open when you are least prepared. It is a danger because in teh event of extreme weather, it could be torn open, or water could be driven under it, but I think that has already been covered. I need to install the 2 additional dogs on my pop-top.

Could a C-25 be modded to handle off-shore conditions? Maybe. But I think for the cost you could get a far better boat that is already designed/equipped to handle the conditions. In my opinion, modding the boats wouldn't be a cost-effective solution. Especially in the current market where boat prices are struggling (especially on bigger boats) and parts prices are rising.

What has my boat survived? I won't go into a long list here, but lets just say that we have sailed in weather that counts as 'beyond marginal' without a story to tell - except for torn sails and broken tillers, sheetleads forcibly removed from T-tracks, and waves that looked a long ways up. But thats just normal stuff - no real damage at all.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 11/20/2012 : 12:14:44

For comparison, my favorite small,bluewater boats displacements:

Flicka 20' 6000
Dana 24' 8000
Southern Cross 28' 8500

Edited by - on

awetmore
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Response Posted - 11/20/2012 : 14:09:30

I do want to point out that "bluewater" boats can have downsides in other uses. The Flicka is a great example, it's SA/D (sail area to displacement) is super low (11.8) from being a heavy boat with a short mast. For comparison most Catalina standard mast boats have a SA/D somewhere in the mid 15s and the tall mast ones have a SA/D in the mid 17s.

The Dana 24 is more "normal" at 15.13. Being a cutter makes it look like it has tons of sail area, but the mast is quite short for a boat of it's displacement. In comparison my Pearson 28-2 is about the same weight (actually slightly lighter) and the mast is about 4' taller.

The cutter is a smarter configuration for a bluewater boat because it gives you more options for adjusting how much canvas is flying. Tacking and gybing is more annoying due to the inner stay, but that isn't a big deal on open water trips.

So a traditional bluewater boat is not likely to be a better option for many coastal trips in areas with lighter winds and with tighter navigation requirements. It is all a matter of tradeoffs, just as with any vehicle.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
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Response Posted - 11/20/2012 : 14:43:39

Which is why I have a C-25 instead of a SC 28. Tiny cockpits for safety are not conducive to taking a few friends out for a sail. I know someone who trailers a Flicka -takes quite a vehicle to tow a total weight approaching 9000 pounds and a lot of time to rig. A boat for every purpose. and a C-25/250 does a great job as a trailerable, coastal cruiser. The SA/D of the SC 28 is 16, and it only has an 8.5 foot beam if you want to hook it on to the back of a really big truck.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 11/20/2012 14:49:00

Voyager
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Response Posted - 11/20/2012 : 22:01:30

I really must say, you can get into big trouble with a boat like ours. While I've managed to keep out of big square breaking waves on Long Island Sound, it doesn't take long for bad conditions to develop. One day I was passing out of the mouth of the Housatonic river when a big downstream current opposed a 2-day SE fetch with 15-20 kt winds. There were 6 ft breakers in the channel about 1.5-2 sec apart. As I approached the worst of it the engine was half in and half out, everything on the boat was crashing around inside, and we were both scared crap-less. Our only choice was to wait for a lull and turn tail and run as quickly as possible. I was worried we'd be broached while in mid turn, but the gods were kind to us that day.
Could not imagine being 10 miles offshore in a similar or worse washing machine than that.
If you've checked the weather and you got surprised, I can see that, but if you just put your fates to the wind to do a long blue-water passage without regard in our boat's abilities, I believe that is completely irresponsible.

Edited by - Voyager on 11/20/2012 22:04:13

redviking
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Response Posted - 11/20/2012 : 23:18:32

While I loved my C25, now that I have a pile of bluewater miles under my belt, I shudder to think about some of what I put my C25 thru... I wouldn't do it again. It's a fine boat, but a walkerbay sailing dinghy is at the same basic safety level in rough seas. It put mine thru a lot. But at the end of the day, I now realise how stupid that was. It's not a Flicka... You'd have to do a bunch of mods... And I could see light thru the hull of my C25 and at a boatshow I was able to get a 250 to can. Near coastal maybe...

Sten

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 11/21/2012 : 12:27:06

[url="http://www.soundingsonline.com/dispatches/289402-video-plowing-through"]Another example[/url] of what one can encounter out there... just in from Soundings Magazine. As they say, the flight deck is 60' (think six-story building) above the waterline. A C-25 would ride up and over the big ones, feeling like an elevator gone mad, while crashing through the "smaller" (5-10') wind-waves on top of the swells. One of those breaking wind-waves at the crest of a swell (what looks like a white-cap from the bridge of the Kitty Hawk) could roll a 25-footer 360 degrees (if you're lucky). A Flicka would probably come back up, maybe even with its rig intact. A C-25--just maybe (but with no mast)... A C-25 swinger--I wouldn't bet on it.

BTW, I don't recall mention of the deck-stepped mast with its sheet-metal tabernacle... That's a no-no for a passagemaker.

I've seen enough when the wind opposes the tide in The Race or Plum Gut (at the end of Long Island)--I venture out of the Sound only when I know what the weather will be from the time I leave to the time I arrive where I'm going. Hawaii in a C-25? Nobody knows what the weather will be for the three-plus weeks that would take. Have fun--I won't be on that boat.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/21/2012 12:37:08

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