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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 08/27/2013 : 10:40:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Peregrine
 [quote](I could be wrong) you were focusing on " If no satisfactory bid from a Fleet... "
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">To the extent that the existing rule establishes or implies a bias in favor of bids from a fleet, the rule ought to be changed so as to eliminate either such a bias, or any such implication. When the association hasn't been able to find either a fleet or an individual organizer for it's national regatta for the past two years, it's ludicrous to either create or to imply the existence of a bias in favor of one or the other. It shouldn't matter to the national association whether the organizer of its national regatta is an individual or a fleet. What matters is having a national regatta, for it's members to enjoy.

There's no good reason to wait until we see whether a fleet submits a proposal before we consider a proposal by an individual. To do so discourages proposals by individuals, and we don't need to put any roadblocks in the way of anyone who wishes to organize our national regatta for us. If an individual makes a proposal, the association shouldn't wait to see if a fleet submits a proposal. The association ought to strike while the iron is hot, and accept the proposal, before the individual's enthusiasm wanes.

The association can't create roadblocks in it's rules and bylaws that discourage people from submitting a bid for the national regatta, and the Vice Commodore can't just post a notice and wait for some white knight to appear and submit a proposal. To most people who haven't had the experience of either attending a national regatta, or of participating in organizing one, the thought of taking on that responsibility seems daunting. It really isn't daunting. The organizer can make it as easy or as complicated as he wishes. The easy way is to ask a club at the proposed venue to allow our association to have a separate start at one of that club's annual regattas, and allow members to participate in the cookout and any social event that is associated with it. In that way, our organizer doesn't have to plan the racing, or organize a race committee, or plan a dinner or social event. That's all done by the local sailing club. Our members might be expected to pay $50-75.00 to compensate the local sailing club for the cost of our food and beverages. Our trophies are provided by the national association.

If the local organizer wants to do more work, he can scour local marinas and chandleries for door prizes, or he can arrange for entertainment, etc. He can make it as easy or as complicated as he wishes.

The officers can't just wait for something to happen. It is, and always has been, the responsibility of the officers to make it happen. There are C25 owners, like Prospector, who want to participate in our national regatta. He and others ought to have the opportunity to do so.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 08/27/2013 10:45:59

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 08/27/2013 : 15:13:04

Steve,
You were the Commodore 28 years ago. Did the following clause not exist when you presided over the assoc.?

Nationals
C:Fleet bids to host the Nationals shall be submitted in writing to the Vice Commodore by June 1 for a vote of the Officers (Article VIII, Section B) by June 30. If no satisfactory bid from a Fleet has been received by June 1, then bidding shall immediately be opened to non-Fleet organizations desiring to host the Nationals.

I have been a member since 1997 and that clause was alway there. I will say when I was editor of the Mainsheet we had an active fleet structure with as many as 15 active fleets.

Also you say:
" The officers can't just wait for something to happen. It is, and always has been, the responsibility of the officers to make it happen "

Section A: makes it clear that is not the case.

Nationals
A: The National Championship Regatta is an annual event hosted by a Fleet and that is sanctioned and sponsored by the Association. It is not an Association event and, therefore, is not guaranteed to occur every year.

We make every effort to follow up on any and all interests in being a host but we are finding that there are passionate racers but very few can bring a growp together to be a host of the Nationals or even a smaller regional regatta.

Edited by - Peregrine on 08/27/2013 15:20:05

Commodore
Russ Johnson

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USA
714 Posts

Response Posted - 08/27/2013 : 16:32:54

As Commodore, it's time for me play the role of "Forum Cop".

I seldom have to regulate the forum and post personal experiences even less.
I'm really disappointed by some of the comments from this post.

Since I have been Commodore, I have responded to every member's email within 24 hours.
No one on this post has sent me an email about the 2013 or 2014 Nationals.
It sounds like some of you are bringing your personal baggage into the conversation "... for the good of the Association..."
Well, I don't see where that helps the 2013 or 2014 Nationals.
I've seen many conversations in other posts, about what happened in 1997, but really guys, that was 16 years ago.

As you know, we are an all volunteer organization. As volunteers, the officers and staff do the best we can to promote sailing participation.
In 2008, I volunteered to be Vice Commodore and the following year I was the organizer and race officer for the 2009 Nationals.
That year, it was hosted by the Berkeley Yacht Club (Berkeley, CA).
I worked with the yacht club, wrote the Notice-of-Race, sailing instructions, skippers packet, recruited members to participate, and awarded the trophies.
I can tell you from personal experience, hosting a regatta can be a lot of work.
So don't feel you have to do it all yourself. We are willing to help with the regatta planning.

Since 2009, I volunteered to be your Commodore. In 2010, the Nationals were in San Diego, CA. and in 2011, the Nationals were hosted by Fleet-100 (Wayzata Yacht Club, Wayzata MN).
I was less involved with those Nationals than in 2009. The Vice Commodore is the primary contact for Nationals and John Gisondi has served in that role since, 2009.
That's enough me and my brief history. I know many of you have been members far longer than myself.

There are some encouraging comments in this post.
Yes, you can host a regatta in conjunction with another event. There is no rule limiting the Nationals to a stand-alone regatta.
The 2010 Nationals was a joint regatta with the C30 Nationals. The different classes can have different start times.
Again, we are here to help the hosting club have a successful regatta.

This now brings me to my next point.
Let me clarify the rules for hosting the Nationals regatta.
The deadline for fleets to submit their bids for the 2013 Nationals was June-1-2012
After June-1-2012, non-fleet bids are accepted.
When there are multiple bids, the officers vote and award the winning bid to the hosting club.
Note: None of the current of officers wrote the By-Laws, we are just following what we have been given.
Changes to the By-Laws require a vote by the association members.

Next, there are many contradictory comments in this post.
The original person who created the post "Prospector" was asking what the rules were to host the Nationals.
He was planning to contact the "Lake Ontario Catalina Association" to see if there was any interest.
He actually did not submit a bid to host the Nationals.
I know because I called him and had a long conversation about many topics, one of which was the Nationals.

Also, there were some posts from other members where were interested in the Nationals and had general questions.
The good news is one of those members actually formed a new fleet.
To date, no one has submitted any bids to host the 2013 or 2014 Nationals.

Next, is the discussion regarding "Regional Regattas".
This was an idea posted on the forum in 2009, by the Commodore at the time.
The Catalina-22 Association uses "Regional Regattas" as a qualifier to compete in the C22 Nationals.
This model will not work for the C25/250 and Capri-25 association.
No one is advocating you must participate in a "Regional" to qualify for the "Nationals".
We should stop using the term "Regional Regatta" it's too confusing to the C22 Regional.
The intent is to have an association "Sanctioned Regatta". This would be hosted by a local club and open to all association members.
The local club, or fleet, could announce their "Regatta" on our website on in the Mainsheet.
This was a good idea, but it never got off the ground. I know because a hosted one at my yacht club.
It was a fun event and we actually got a few skippers to join the Association, because I handed out my old copies of the Mainsheet.

In conclusion, the Association is an all-volunteer organization and we can always make improvements.
We are always looking for volunteers and we have several officer and staff positions available.
If you have questions about hosting the Nationals, hosting a sanctioned regatta, or starting a new fleet then please contact any of the officers.
If you have additional questions or comments, please send me an email.
I am glad to discuss your ideas for improvements and how to implement them.

Please don't make me be the "Forum Cop".
Russ Johnson
Commodore

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 08/27/2013 : 17:43:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Peregrine
 [font=Comic Sans MS][size=2][navy]Steve,
You were the Commodore 28 years ago. Did the following clause not exist when you presided over the assoc.?
+
Nationals
C:Fleet bids to host the Nationals shall be submitted in writing to the Vice Commodore by June 1 for a vote of the Officers (Article VIII, Section B) by June 30. If no satisfactory bid from a Fleet has been received by June 1, then bidding shall immediately be opened to non-Fleet organizations desiring to host the Nationals.

I have been a member since 1997 and that clause was alway there.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Not true. During part of that time you were expelled from the association. But, to answer your question, That rule certainly didn't exist during my term as Commodore. I haven't kept a calendar of dates when various assn. rules were adopted or changed, because I frankly have better things to do with my time, but I can say with certainty that that rule was not in effect in 1997. I remember it being proposed and I opposed it at the time because I could foresee that it would produce the very same undesirable results that it is now producing. The rule ties the hands of the officers, and prevents them from acting promptly on a bona fide proposal to host the national regatta. I know, from many years of experience with the national association, that you don't get a lot of bids to choose from in any individual year, but in most years, you get 2-3 serious proposals. When you get a good proposal, or sometimes even a halfway decent proposal, you have to have the flexibility to act promptly (i.e., strike while the iron is hot) and approve it before the organizer's enthusiasm wanes, or before he becomes discouraged by beaureaucratic delay. That rule unnecessarily creates a beaureaucratic delay. The assn. can't approve the existing proposal until time passes, to permit any fleet to make a proposal. We don't have that many fleets, and they haven't been offering to organize our national regattas lately, so that delay represents wasted time for no good reason that allows the enthusiasm of a legitimate organizer to wane. It's a bad rule that should never have been adopted in the first place. The best thing that the current officers could do is to repeal that bad rule, but my best guess is that they won't. Their rationale will be that they will want to leave it up to their successors to change it. You apparently still think there's some merit in the rule.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> I will say when I was editor of the Mainsheet we had an active fleet structure with as many as 15 active fleets.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> The officers can't really do anything to increase the numbers of fleets. The most they can do is to facilitate the creation of fleets. They can eliminate needless beaurocracy and make it easy to create a new fleet. But, the desire to create a new fleet only arises when 3-4 or more Catalina owners decide that they would like to join together and organize picnics and raft-ups and races with their fellow Catalina owners. The National Association can't make that happen. Only individual members can make it happen.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Also you say:
" The officers can't just wait for something to happen. It is, and always has been, the responsibility of the officers to make it happen "

Section A: makes it clear that is not the case.

Nationals
A: The National Championship Regatta is an annual event hosted by a Fleet and that is sanctioned and sponsored by the Association. It is not an Association event and, therefore, is not guaranteed to occur every year. We make every effort to follow up on any and all interests in being a host but we are finding that there are passionate racers but very few can bring a growp together to be a host of the Nationals or even a smaller regional regatta.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yeah, that's a "rule" that is not just bad, it's frankly despicable. That's a cowardly rule that someone proposed to excuse their failure to stage a national regatta for two years in a row. With the adoption of that rule, now you can point to it and claim that it really wasn't your failure after all, because you wrote a rule that said it isn't your duty. Apparently someone thinks we're all dumb enough to swallow that.

Some members think it isn't very important who they elect to lead this association next year. They think the officers are all volunteers, and that it's unreasonable to expect to be led by conscientious, dedicated volunteer officers, and that whoever is elected will be at least nominally satisfactory. All our officers for the past 30 years have been volunteers. There was a time when the assn. officers misused assn. funds to pay for trips for themselves. It matters who you elect to serve the assn. next year. Your vote matters. Cast it, and cast it wisely. IMO, all but the Vice Commodore deserves your vote. The assn. shouldn't be led by a person who references a self-serving rule to excuse his failure to perform his duty.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 08/27/2013 17:51:04

Commodore
Russ Johnson

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USA
714 Posts

Response Posted - 08/27/2013 : 17:59:09

Steve,

I guess you didn't read my post.
Please take your personal comments off-line.

Yes, we can make creating a fleet easier.
Yes, we can make making a bid for Nationals easier.
Yes, we would like to award the Nationals every year.
Yes, we can use volunteers to make that happen.
No, John didn't make up the Regatta rules himself.
No, I didn't make up the Regatta rules either.

I am willing to work with you or any other member who wants to volunteer to provide results.
This post has run it's course and it's just dragging into personal attacks.

Russ

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 08/27/2013 : 18:11:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Commodore
 Steve,

I guess you didn't read my post.
Please take your personal comments off-line.

Yes, we can make creating a fleet easier.
Yes, we can make making a bid for Nationals easier.
Yes, we would like to award the Nationals every year.
Yes, we can use volunteers to make that happen.
No, John didn't make up the Regatta rules himself.
No, I didn't make up the Regatta rules either.

I am willing to work with you or any other member who wants to volunteer to provide results.
This post has run it's course and it's just dragging into personal attacks.

Russ
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Russ, the concerns I am expressing aren't personal. They involve the functioning of the National Association. I should have a right to express my concerns about the functioning of the association, and certainly about who is fit to serve as an officer, and I don't appreciate my comments being suppressed.

Edited by - on

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 08/27/2013 : 18:31:39

So...
If there are no bids by a fleet or individual. What then?
There is no mechanism for an alternative under the current bylaws.
Are the officers then supposed organize a regatta.?

Edited by - Peregrine on 09/21/2013 19:42:27

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 08/27/2013 : 18:39:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Peregrine
 So...
If there are no bids by a fleet or individual. What then?
There is no mechanism for an alternative under the current bylaws.
Are the officers then supposed organize a regatta?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Well gosh, that's not a wholly unreasonable idea. I brought it to my lake during my year, and then made sure that we had an organizer and venue lined up for the next year, before I left office.

As a matter of fact, I created the bidding process. Originally, the rules provided that the person who won the national regatta had the right to decide where it would be held next. I thought that decision should be reserved to the national association, and that the regatta should be moved around the country, so members everywhere could at least have a chance to participate in their national regatta when it was in their part of the country. Accordingly, I got that rule changed so that anyone who was willing to organize the event could submit a proposal, and, if there were more than one bid, the assn. could choose the one that best met the needs of the members.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 08/27/2013 19:01:20

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 08/27/2013 : 20:31:41

I used to race some but haven't for years. I see nothing has changed. Always too much politics and bickering. Takes all the fun out of it.

Edited by - GaryB on 08/27/2013 20:38:21

BigTex
Deckhand

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USA
4 Posts

Response Posted - 08/27/2013 : 20:48:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 I used to race some but haven't for years. I see nothing has changed. Always too much politics and bickering. Takes all the fun out of it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Amen, America's Cup has less politics then these boys.

You mean to say how you changed the rules 20 years ago?
You guys like to hear the sound of you own voices.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2013 : 08:40:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 I used to race some but haven't for years. I see nothing has changed. Always too much politics and bickering. Takes all the fun out of it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">This has little to do with racing, except incidentally. It concerns the leadership of the organization.

Edited by - on

Treasurer
Roy Hinrichs

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USA
61 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2013 : 13:18:17

I want to remind our members as well as non members of our Association Forum Rules:
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13520

I bring this up as I and the other Officers are in agreement that many recent commemts are inappropriate as stated above in Rule 6:
6. Please use the "<s>Member Feedback</s>Complaints" forum or personal email to
board members to discuss forum or association issues. Complaining in other forums is inappropriate.

This is further evidenced by the comments of our membership. At least 3 members commented re the inappropriateness of the comments made. It is the duty as Officers, to ensure our members feel the forum is a safe place to interact. Additionally, # 1 forum rule is:
1. Be courteous and appropriate. This forum is for mutual support of sailors through the sharing of knowledge and experiences.

We the Officers/moderators will not delete complaints or inappropriate forum content but will move said content to another area of the forum, such as the Complaints forum.
Should any Officer/moderator purposely delete any content, such individual may no longer enjoy such privileges. Other actions may further ensue.

Further, the offending member making inappropriate posts/comments will be warned as stated in Rule #4:
4. Political commentary, personal attacks, posts with profanity and
other off color remarks will be <s>deleted</s> moved and the offender will be warned.

Should a member continue abusing this Rule or any Forum Rule, that member may be banned or suspended per Rules 7 & 8:
7. Personal attacks against other posters or members will not be tolerated. Offenders may be banned from the forum
8. Repeatedly violating these rules may be grounds for suspension or revocation of forum right

As stated above and worthy of being repeated-These Rules are in place so that Members and Non Members can enjoy mutual support of sailors through the sharing of knowledge and experiences. Our members have a right to expect nothing less.

We have a Complaints area in the International Association Business forum: http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=26649. Feel free to posts your comments there and know they will are taken seriously.

Let me finally add, we encourage members to fill the vacant positions so we can do more and there is much to do. Many of the officers are already doubling up on their duties by taking on the duties of these unfulfilled positions. Please go to:http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/officers.asp.
We encourage members to submit bids, so the Officers can approve them.
Finally we encourage members to form a fleet, so the Officers can create them.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2013 : 15:32:36

Please see my complaint in the "Complaints" forum. (You might have difficulty finding the "Complaints Forum," because there is no "Complaints Forum." There is only a Complaints thread, which can be found in the "International Association Business" forum.)

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2013 : 20:00:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Peregrine
 So....
If there are no bids by a fleet or individual. What then?
There is no mechanism for an alternative under the current bylaws.
Are the officers then supposed organize a regatta.?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The National Regatta is for the racers among us... Racers need to be involved in organizing it. The officer responsible for initiating that (the Vice Commodore) should be involved in the process--not hostile to racers who both organize and participate, or to a Commodore who, by the job description, is not directly responsible. (I won't elaborate here.)

The problem might be the responsible officer... but maybe, just maybe, the problem is the objective.

The C-25 is an older boat that was never a one-design racer (with six major design variations), and is barely transportable--and clearly few owners are prepared to or interested in transporting them. Of about 6,000 built, how many race at all? How many are interested in either organizing or transporting to a national regatta? I'll suggest the numbers have dropped every year as boats change hands to less and less dedicated sailors (who are spending less and less to buy boats).

The C-250 has been selling into a more contemporary marketplace, with many other entries for people who are interested in racing. Its forte is trailerability and/or cruisability. A few people race PHRF in their local areas, but don't buy them for racing. How many have shown up for recent Nationals? I think I can count them on my fingers for all of the Nationals we've succeeded in organizing.

So my question is this: Is a pure national racing regatta what this association should be focusing its energy on? Or should there be some other objectives--such as national or regional rendezvous (or whatever the plural of that is)? Various activities could be planned, with some informal races included... I see these almost every week at the Mystic Seaport, for various classes, models, and makes.

As for recognizing racers, I once suggested a scoring system for all of our racers, based on their results in sanctioned local races. Each year, the association could determine a "Racer of the Year" (or call it a "National Champion" if you wish) based on those results. That might add more to the interest in the association and racing than any National Regatta that nobody wants to come to.

The Bylaws say the association is responsible for organizing a National Regatta to determine a National Champion... That was what-- 30 years ago? That was then, this is now. I could be wrong, but I think things have changed.

Just some thoughts...

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/15/2013 20:16:23

Commodore
Russ Johnson

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USA
714 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2013 : 20:29:36

Dave,

Thank you for your thoughts.
I know you no longer have a sailboat, so it makes your situation a little different.
Since you are active in the Mystic Seaport area, I would like to contact sailors in your area.
If you know any assoc. members from your yacht club, or from the docks, I'll like to hear from them.
We would like to create a fleet or publicize a local event.

Please send me an email with anyone you can think of.
Thanks, Russ

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2013 : 03:53:18

Once again, the focus on the National Regatta is thought about in the terms of the Catalina 25... or 250...
There actually IS a One Design racer that is still a part of this association. The CAPRI 25!

I submit to you folks that the Catalina 25, and the 250 aren't your racers (exactly what Dave is saying)... and getting bids to host a regionals or nationals is non-existent because the voice of the Capri 25 is missing (the group MOST LIKELY to be racing their boats - A LOT), because we have a rather small contingent of Capri 25 owners represented here. The QUESTIONS being asked should be is A) are there NO Capri 25s around anymore, are they now RARE boats? or B) Do we not bring those owners HERE for some reason? C) Even if we DO have a decent representation of Capri 25 owners, are MOST of them just not interested in racing?

Lemme explain C - when I searched for Capri 25s... and YES I SOUGHT out THIS boat! About HALF of the ones I found had roller furlers and lazy jacks... Not exactly race configured.

Finally the requirement that a fleet bid for a regatta makes sense (to me) because how many want to uproot their boats to trailer any kind of distance to race (let's hope a decent amount) but it's a lot of work! I know there are always a few who WILL, but the host club best have the facilities for it... I know OURS would be lacking... we have NO clubhouse, just a campground. That HOST club best have trailer storage, and preferably a lift, and a mast crane (all things we don't have).

Best I can tell Catalina made well over 1000 Capri 25s (which compared to other manufactures that was a decent number).. with a VERY large number of them made 30+ years ago. With the exception of Wayzatta yacht club, I doubt you'll get more than 3 Capri's in a location to represent a REGIONAL (again I mention this because THEY will MOST likely want to race their boats and be race ready, but see C above)... sheer math precludes it.

I am by NO means saying Catalina 25s are "unraceable," I compete with 2 in our fleet locally (and there are 2-3 more at the lake, as well as 2 or 3 250s), and they do quite well! But I think any one of them would tell you, they are less likely to be interested in a "regional" much less a "national" than say I would, because racing is a fun activity with their boats, not their primary focus.

So I say to you... Find the Capri 25 owners. Find a club that has MORE than 3 (that race)... and see if THEY want to host a nationals, or a regionals. Otherwise I believe a national OD race/regatta might be a non-starter. Meanwhile I'll be racing in handicapped racing.

PS: I'll consider trailering to any regional, or national within an 8 hour driving distance, once I work out the kinks in my trailering. I may not have crew, but that usually doesn't stop me!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2013 : 07:18:20

John, I suspect the only place where you'd compete with more than two other Capri 25s (for a total of three) is at Wayzatta YC, which has an active and organized fleet of ?? (lots of) boats. Why are they not represented here (that I know of)? I suspect because their own fleet has all they want--camaraderie, organization, communications, and O/D racing--probably more of all of that than we would offer. If they hosted a Nationals for our association, it would probably be their big fleet, maybe one or two other CP-25s, and possibly a couple of C-25s. (...and maybe one C-250.) I'm just guessing...

I was wondering, however, how the association could add to the interest in racing among its members, and recognize members for representing our boats well around the country. Our "National Regatta" just doesn't do it. But reports here of racing experiences (and wins) raise the interest of even this $+!nkp*++er. I think the association could recognize a "International Racer of the Year", and perhaps some others--like "Rookie of the Year", "Most Improved", "Cruiser of the Year",...

For racing, this could be as simple as each candidate submitting their best ten(?) results for the year in sanctioned races, including corrected place (P) and number of boats in the race or regatta (B). Compute the sum of P/B for the ten(?) races, and the low total wins. Should it be ten...? Should the formula be more sophisticated? I dunno... But any member could participate with no hauling, driving, launching, rigging,... And our true, best racers would be "head-to-head". Of course, this implies an honors system--I would hope that couldn't possibly be an issue here...

As for true face-to-face events, focus on the faces, not on the boats. Make them family affairs... One example was a dinner around Dayton Ohio a few years ago, organized through this forum. People drove from all around--some staying in hotels. It just sorta happened!

Net: I'm suggesting focusing on things that will enhance an international organization with hundreds of active members and thousands of potentials spread all over. If something (a National Championship Regatta) is no longer working, to the point of even raising people's anger, try something else. (You could try the scoring thing this year--especially since otherwise you have no "champion" of any sort.)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/16/2013 07:21:43

Commodore
Russ Johnson

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USA
714 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2013 : 07:28:35

John,

Good points.
We need to attract more Capri-25 sailors.
If you want to work with me, I'll send you an email and we can brainstorm some ideas.
It might generate some interest, or it might not, but I'm willing to try.

Thanks, Russ

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2013 : 08:47:16

Russ this isn't all on YOU! While it may ULTIMATELY be on you (as commodore)... it's really JUST as much US!
You guys ignored C)
What happens if (outside of WYC) there just aren't that many Capri 25 racers/boats? Again I contend that THEY ARE YOUR RACE representation, they are most interested in a OD national (which is what the National race is!). They are going to be the MOST DRIVEN individuals interested in a Regionals or Nationals.

Also Dave - WYC DID host nationals quite successfully in 2011. You are right as well that THEY really don't need the association at all, glad you caught my point on that, in which I so subtly left. Read here, in early Jan 2013 http://www.wyc.org/c25/HomeNews.aspx Someone should be begging them to do this again (in the absence of another bid).

Russ as always I'd do whatever I can to help, you say the word I'll work with you...

SHNOOL who is presently sitting at Overall 2nd for his club for 2013, and likely not going to be able to make 1st (one race left, it'd require a minor miracle).

I'm not in a blame game (I just don't think it helps). I am a realist. Outside of WYC I don't see someone stepping up to host a One Design Nationals race with 25 foot Catalinas in it, Capri's or otherwise...

I googled for a bit trying to find NOOD entries/results to get a flavor for numbers... and wasn't real successful, but I've read that numbers are down across the board (and with most fleets have been down year over year, including the venerable J/24).

Our own sail club attendance is down, in the club and the races.

Are we sure there isn't a larger problem here?

Edited by - on

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2013 : 19:07:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Peregrine
 So....
If there are no bids by a fleet or individual. What then?
There is no mechanism for an alternative under the current bylaws.
Are the officers then supposed organize a regatta.?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The National Regatta is for the racers among us... Racers need to be involved in organizing it. The officer responsible for initiating that (the Vice Commodore) should be involved in the process--not hostile to racers who both organize and participate, or to a Commodore who, by the job description, is not directly responsible. (I won't elaborate here.)

The problem might be the responsible officer... but maybe, just maybe, the problem is the objective.

The C-25 is an older boat that was never a one-design racer (with six major design variations), and is barely transportable--and clearly few owners are prepared to or interested in transporting them. Of about 6,000 built, how many race at all? How many are interested in either organizing or transporting to a national regatta? I'll suggest the numbers have dropped every year as boats change hands to less and less dedicated sailors (who are spending less and less to buy boats).

The C-250 has been selling into a more contemporary marketplace, with many other entries for people who are interested in racing. Its forte is trailerability and/or cruisability. A few people race PHRF in their local areas, but don't buy them for racing. How many have shown up for recent Nationals? I think I can count them on my fingers for all of the Nationals we've succeeded in organizing.

So my question is this: Is a pure national racing regatta what this association should be focusing its energy on? Or should there be some other objectives--such as national or regional rendezvous (or whatever the plural of that is)? Various activities could be planned, with some informal races included... I see these almost every week at the Mystic Seaport, for various classes, models, and makes.

As for recognizing racers, I once suggested a scoring system for all of our racers, based on their results in sanctioned local races. Each year, the association could determine a "Racer of the Year" (or call it a "National Champion" if you wish) based on those results. That might add more to the interest in the association and racing than any National Regatta that nobody wants to come to.

The Bylaws say the association is responsible for organizing a National Regatta to determine a National Champion... That was what-- 30 years ago? That was then, this is now. I could be wrong, but I think things have changed.

Just some thoughts...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Good thoughts Dave.

Every hint of any racing interest is pursued but it may be that other events should be looked at, like the Catalina Rendevous in Long Island Sound and the Calaina Island Rendevous on the "other" coast.

We will always encourage racing regattas but maybe we should open our minds to other events that will bring our members together.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2013 : 19:37:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Commodore
 Dave,

Thank you for your thoughts.
I know you no longer have a sailboat, so it makes your situation a little different. Since you are active in the Mystic Seaport area, I would like to contact sailors in your area. If you know any assoc. members from your yacht club, or from the docks, I'll like to hear from them...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Russ, I'm aware of a couple of C-25s in the Mystic area, but have no idea who they belong to. (...apparently not participants here.) The only Catalinas I know about that race in the area are a C-22 and a C-30.

There are several participants on Long Island Sound (including the Vice Commodore), the south shore of Long Island, inland CT, and Narragansett Bay (RI)--somewhat scattered for a fleet, but maybe not for a get-together. We belonged to the [url="http://www.saillisca.com/"]Long Island Sound Catalina Association[/url], but didn't participate in many of their events.

The [url="http://www.mysticseaport.org/visit/plan-your-visit/visit-by-boat/"]Mystic Seaport[/url] is often host to groups of boats from yacht clubs, associations, etc. Dockage includes 24-hour access to the Seaport grounds. If somebody would like to get a group together here, I can help organize, including where to anchor by the Seaport for free. The Seaport and village have dinghy docks, and there are marinas down-river with more amenities (like pools). There are hotels in walking distance for people who want to join in without their boats.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/16/2013 20:22:05

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 09/22/2013 : 04:59:36

John: For the benefit of those who don't completely understand your cryptic remark, let me explain. I have previously expressed my firm opinion that you should not be advanced to the office of Commodore in the next election. Commodore Russ hasn't previously stated publicly whether or not he agreed with me, and, in the above quoted post, he urged me to take my comments offline. I believe the issue had to be brought to the attention of the membership, because, if not, you would be elevated to the office of Commodore at the next election in the ordinary course of things.

While I didn't participate in the recent officer's meeting to which you refer, and have no personal knowledge of what he said, you have revealed that Commodore Russ sided with me, and according to you, agreed that you should not be elevated to the office of Commodore.

Thank you for revealing to the membership the Commodore's views on the matter. I would not have done so. I would have respected his preference to keep his personal opinion private, but now that you have done so, the membership can begin to understand that I am not alone, and that others who know you and your history agree with me. Now that you have revealed Commodore Russ' opinion, perhaps other respected members who have privately expressed their agreement with me will be emboldened to do so publicly.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 09/22/2013 : 17:11:51

For those who are puzzled by my post, above, it was written in response to a post made by Vice Commodore John Gisondi, who complained that Commodore Russ took my side at a recent officers' meeting, with regard to my concern that the Vice Commodore should not be advanced to the office of Commodore. After I posted my reply, the Vice Commodore deleted his post. He might have realized that it was a mistake for him to reveal to the membership that the Commodore agreed with me.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 09/22/2013 : 19:51:49

That solves that mystery... As a non-owner now (and therefore ineligible to vote even if I were a member), I'm reluctant to get into politics here... and the election is a year away... But as a "private agreer" with Steve, based on some history a few of us know about, I'll offer this background information to members: an "anonymous" blog started in 2006 and running to 2009, showing the feelings of the author toward the various leaders and participants in this association. Included, in September of 2006, is a remark about what was apparently an illegal (by federal law) "denial of service attack" against the association site, which at the time was traced back to an IP address in an area where a certain person temporarily exiled by the association lived.

So, with no further comment, I introduce the [url="http://c25-250-observer.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2006-01-01T00:00:00-05:00&updated-max=2007-01-01T00:00:00-05:00&max-results=17"]Catalina 25/250 Association Observer[/url], in his own words, and suggest you read it starting in 2006 and working forward in time.

I'll only offer the opinion that his comments about several of our former commodores, who I believed to be first-rate volunteers to this organization, and statesmen in their own ways, are not those of a leader who is capable of inviting people to service, delegating responsibilities, following up, supporting others' efforts, and handling difficult situations with care (as Russ Johnson, for example, is doing for the association).

The association belongs to its members--I'm an outsider now. Over and out.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/22/2013 20:03:48

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 09/24/2013 : 18:33:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 That solves that mystery... As a non-owner now (and therefore ineligible to vote even if I were a member), I'm reluctant to get into politics here... and the election is a year away... But as a "private agreer" with Steve, based on some history a few of us know about, I'll offer this background information to members: an "anonymous" blog started in 2006 and running to 2009, showing the feelings of the author toward the various leaders and participants in this association. Included, in September of 2006, is a remark about what was apparently an illegal (by federal law) "denial of service attack" against the association site, which at the time was traced back to an IP address in an area where a certain person temporarily exiled by the association lived.

So, with no further comment, I introduce the [url="http://c25-250-observer.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2006-01-01T00:00:00-05:00&updated-max=2007-01-01T00:00:00-05:00&max-results=17"]Catalina 25/250 Association Observer[/url], in his own words, and suggest you read it starting in 2006 and working forward in time.

I'll only offer the opinion that his comments about several of our former commodores, who I believed to be first-rate volunteers to this organization, and statesmen in their own ways, are not those of a leader who is capable of inviting people to service, delegating responsibilities, following up, supporting others' efforts, and handling difficult situations with care (as Russ Johnson, for example, is doing for the association).

The association belongs to its members--I'm an outsider now. Over and out.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Neither Steve Milby nor Dave has owned an Assoc. boat of any kind for DECADES!!
I repeat D-E-C-A-D-E-S !!!!
They have no say in the governance of the Assoc. only their misguided opinions.

Edited by - on

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