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Tied off the traveler...

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redeye
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Initially Posted - 02/17/2014 : 08:29:37

I tied off the Traveler in the middle when I bought the boat and haven't seemed to miss it.

Will she point better using the Traveler? Is the adjustment of great value??

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - redeye on 02/17/2014 08:29:54

awetmore
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Response Posted - 02/17/2014 : 08:45:55

Do you have the stock traveler? It is of limited use because it's range of travel is too short.

The traveler will allow you to adjust the angle of attack of the sail without adjusting the downforce on the boom. Normally the main sheet does both things. We survived on the Catalina 25 by using the vang heavily (this is sometimes called vang sheeting), but it is harder on the boom than the main sheet and not ideal either.

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redeye
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Response Posted - 02/17/2014 : 09:08:17

<< Do you have the stock traveler? >>

Yepper... stock and it just seems a little .. well.. useless.

Edited by - on

awetmore
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Response Posted - 02/17/2014 : 10:01:47

It isn't totally useless, the travel is just very short. You can still use it to fine tune angle of attack on the main when you are sailing close hauled.

A nice upgrade is moving it forward to near the companionway. The problem is that bridgedeck on the Catalina 25 is lower than the seat height, so it makes a new obstacle to step over. I still wish I had done that swap on my 25. That is where the traveler is on my Pearson 28-2 and it's very effective.

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 02/17/2014 : 10:54:26

Probably the most important function of the traveler is that it adjusts the balance between the center of effort of the sailplan against the center of lateral resistance of the hull and keel.

If the CE of the sails is forward or aft of the CLR, then the boat will tend to either head up or bear away. If the two forces are out of balance, then the only way you can hold the boat on it's course is by turning the rudder. Whenever you turn the rudder, it is like putting on the brakes. Using the rudder creates drag. The more you have to turn it to hold course, the more it slows the boat.

The next time you feel a strong weather helm tugging at the tiller, try easing the traveler to leeward a few inches. You will feel an immediate reduction in the tiller pressure. When that happens, you might not notice it, but your boatspeed will increase. I can't tell you exactly how far to ease the traveler, because that depends on how hard the wind is blowing. Your best guide is to ease it until you feel the tiller pressure diminish. If you have a good knotmeter, you will see your speed rise when you ease the traveler correctly. A gps doesn't report boat speed as accurately as a good knotmeter.

Interestingly, the traveler doesn't only work that way in strong, gusty winds. Sometimes the balance between the CE and CLR can be slightly off in light air, too. If you can get them in balance, the boat will speed up, but it's harder to learn how to do it in light air, because you don't have that strong tiller pressure to guide you.

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Stinkpotter
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Response Posted - 02/17/2014 : 11:01:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 A nice upgrade is moving it forward to near the companionway...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I was thinking about that, although I wouldn't have "moved it"--I would have left the original hardware where it is, in case I or a later owner wanted to switch to a class-legal rig, and bought a track sized to fit across the seats against the bulkhead between the coamings. The effectiveness is increased by both the length and the mid-boom sheeting. Plus, it eliminates the threat of decapitation of someone sitting aft during an unexpected jibe. (Ever sailed through a micro-burst?

)

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 02/17/2014 : 12:24:33

I found that the traveler on the transom is virtually useless with the control lines cleated on the transom. On TSU I made a modification and moved the control lines forward to mid-cockpit so that the crew could adjust it (it is still class legal). You can find pics of my mod in the archives.
It made the traveler a useful piece of sail trim and contributed to our racing success.

Edited by - on

islander
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Response Posted - 02/17/2014 : 13:11:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Plus, it eliminates the threat of decapitation of someone sitting aft during an unexpected jibe.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
True but it wouldn't help the person sitting backwards leaning against the bulkhead ( my wife's favorite spot when sailing) or the complaints from her sitting on the T-Track

Edited by - islander on 02/17/2014 13:12:50

cshaw
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Response Posted - 02/17/2014 : 14:12:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 I found that the traveler on the transom is virtually useless with the control lines cleated on the transom. On TSU I made a modification and moved the control lines forward to mid-cockpit so that the crew could adjust it (it is still class legal). You can find pics of my mod in the archives.
It made the traveler a useful piece of sail trim and contributed to our racing success.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Derek, I found the message thread (1/22/2003) where you posted two pics with the camera you got from Santa!!! <grin>, but neither pic would open? Do you still have them?

Thanks!

Chuck

Edited by - cshaw on 02/17/2014 14:25:02

awetmore
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Response Posted - 02/17/2014 : 14:30:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by islander
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Plus, it eliminates the threat of decapitation of someone sitting aft during an unexpected jibe.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
True but it wouldn't help the person sitting backwards leaning against the bulkhead ( my wife's favorite spot when sailing) or the complaints from her sitting on the T-Track

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Unless you've travelled all the way up it doesn't destroy her seating location. That is also my wife's favorite sitting location.

However my boat was designed to have the traveler mounted there and has a recess for the track and so it isn't uncomfortable to sit on. It would be a fantastic but very difficult mod to a Catalina 25 to recess the track.

The location on the Capri boats is also superior (which cuts across the center of the cockpit), but that would create even more problems on a Catalina 25.

Edited by - on

Peregrine
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Response Posted - 02/17/2014 : 21:35:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 Probably the most important function of the traveler is that it adjusts the balance between the center of effort of the sailplan against the center of lateral resistance of the hull and keel.

If the CE of the sails is forward or aft of the CLR, then the boat will tend to either head up or bear away. If the two forces are out of balance, then the only way you can hold the boat on it's course is by turning the rudder. Whenever you turn the rudder, it is like putting on the brakes. Using the rudder creates drag. The more you have to turn it to hold course, the more it slows the boat.

The next time you feel a strong weather helm tugging at the tiller, try easing the traveler to leeward a few inches. You will feel an immediate reduction in the tiller pressure. When that happens, you might not notice it, but your boatspeed will increase. I can't tell you exactly how far to ease the traveler, because that depends on how hard the wind is blowing. Your best guide is to ease it until you feel the tiller pressure diminish. If you have a good knotmeter, you will see your speed rise when you ease the traveler correctly. A gps doesn't report boat speed as accurately as a good knotmeter.

Interestingly, the traveler doesn't only work that way in strong, gusty winds. Sometimes the balance between the CE and CLR can be slightly off in light air, too. If you can get them in balance, the boat will speed up, but it's harder to learn how to do it in light air, because you don't have that strong tiller pressure to guide you.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I agree with Steve and have been able to use the traveler effectively BUT….
Only after getting the main into the best shape for current conditions, will the short travel on the traveler have any noticeable effect.
Work on getting all the tell Tails streaming on the main then see if the traveler helps you.

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 02/18/2014 : 04:44:56

<< try easing the traveler to leeward a few inches. You will feel an immediate reduction in the tiller pressure. >>

I've tightened the topping lift, and let off the mainsheet to the same effect. opens the leech. to me... essentially balancing the boat. It's funny trying even to talk about proper sail trim when you know one of your sails ( my jib ) is bagged out so bad it barely functions as anything more than a spinn...

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dasreboot
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Response Posted - 02/18/2014 : 04:50:35

it does help a bit if you need to sheet the boom to the centerline. you can haul the traveler to windward.

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 02/18/2014 : 05:56:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redeye
 << try easing the traveler to leeward a few inches. You will feel an immediate reduction in the tiller pressure. >>

I've tightened the topping lift, and let off the mainsheet to the same effect. opens the leech. to me... essentially balancing the boat.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Easing the mainsheet instead of dropping the traveler to leeward reduces tiller pressure but it also reduces the efficiency of the sail.

Windspeed at the top of the mast is higher than it is at the deck. That principle is called gradient effect. The basic shape of a mainsail is built into it by the sailmaker, and controls are provided that enable us to adjust that shape, and to take advantage of gradient effect.

As the ambient windspeed increases, the gradient wind effect decreases. Another way of saying it that is more understandable is, the harder the wind is blowing, the less difference there is between the windspeed on deck and the windspeed at the top of the mast. Consequently, as the ambient windspeed increases, mainsail twist should be reduced. The mainsheet controls the amount of twist in the sail. Think about it this way - if the windspeed is higher at the top of the sail, then you will want to flatten the camber of the upper part of the sail and flatten it's angle of attack, just like you do with the lower section of the sail as the windspeed increases. The way you flatten the camber and angle of attack of the upper part of the sail is by increasing the tension on the mainsheet, and using the traveler to adjust the angle of attack of the sail, and to balance the CE and CLR, as I explained above.

When you ease the mainsheet instead of the traveler, you are, in effect, luffing the upper part of the sail, and that reduces the sail's overall power, and it reduces the boat's ability to point to windward efficiently.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 02/19/2014 06:31:42

pastmember
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Response Posted - 02/18/2014 : 08:01:56

Allowing the boom to rise is how I dump air in the top of my reefed main in a serious blow. As has been said, the traveler is about opening the slot while maintaining the leech shape. The horse posing as a traveler on a C 25 is certainly of minimal value but does allow some opening of the slot but mostly a C 25 has to be controlled with the boom vang, which is why I am stupefied by people who do not have a boom vang and see it as a "racing extra" when it is a major piece of safety equipment allowing a skipper to maintain control of the boat in conditions that are unsafe for someone with out one.

Edited by - pastmember on 02/18/2014 08:02:44

sdpinaz
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Response Posted - 02/18/2014 : 08:46:22

how bout one of these? you can remove it when you need to get it out of the way or race legally...

http://www.bartonmarine.com/latest-developments.asp#dev7

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awetmore
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Response Posted - 02/18/2014 : 10:41:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 

Easing the mainsheet instead of dropping the traveler to leeward reduces tiller pressure but it also reduces the efficiency of the sail.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Unless you are using vang sheeting techniques and have the vang on hard enough to control the boom. That is the alternative to the traveler on the C-25. Then the C-25 traveler is used only to bring the boom closer to the boat's centerline (by bringing the traveler car above the centerline) when trying to point high.

The downside of vang sheeting is that it points a very high point load on the boom and can bend the boom. On the C-25's stock hardware the tangs that support the vang will probably break first.

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 02/18/2014 : 12:25:13

Chuck - I sent you the pics via Shutterfly. I hope!

Edited by - on

cshaw
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Response Posted - 02/18/2014 : 13:02:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 Chuck - I sent you the pics via Shutterfly. I hope!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Got 'em!!! Thanks! I like the setup!!! I am also thinking I would run the lines along the top of the transom out to the aft "corners", and then a cheekblock to turn them forward, with a small cam cleat with fairlead on the aft area of the combing. The crew could pull "forward" to pull the traveller to weather and ease it easily.

The problem is there is no really great location out on the corner to put the cheek block.....

Chuck

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 02/18/2014 : 13:36:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 Allowing the boom to rise is how I dump air in the top of my reefed main in a serious blow.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I do too, but dumping the mainsheet should be the absolute last thing you do to keep the boat upright in a hard blow. Why? Because the only good thing that happens when you dump the main sheet is that the boat stays upright. Everything else that happens is bad. Dumping the mainsheet depowers the sail, destroys it's shape, ruins it's angle of attack and upsets the balance between the CLR and CE, and it kills boatspeed and pointing ability. If the only thing that matters at the moment is keeping the boat upright and preventing it from rounding up or broaching, then dumping the mainsheet is the correct thing to do. If the situation is any less desperate, you should use other techniques that have fewer bad consequences. Flattening the sails will help keep it upright by reducing their power and reducing heeling moment. Those are both good things. They help the boat use it's sail power more efficiently, they increase boat speed, and improve pointing. The same can happen if you increase vang tension, increase halyard tension, increase outhaul tension, increase backstay tension. Easing the traveler is something you should do incrementally. As windspeed increases and the boat begins to increase it's angle of heel, you should gradually ease the traveler to leeward, but eventually, easing the traveler starts to have some bad effects, but not as many as dumping the mainsheet. Easing the traveler will help keep the boat on it's feet, because it will reduce heeling moment, which is a good thing, of course, but when you ease it alot, it will diminish sail power, reduce boat speed and pointing ability, and it will at some point, ruin the angle of attack. Thus, the traveler can have very good effects, such as fine tuning the balance between the CE and CLR, and keeping the boat on it's feet, or it can have bad effects, and the trick to getting the most benefit out of the traveler is in figuring out when and how to use it.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> As has been said, the traveler is about opening the slot while maintaining the leech shape. The horse posing as a traveler on a C 25 is certainly of minimal value but does allow some opening of the slot but mostly a C 25 has to be controlled with the boom vang, which is why I am stupefied by people who do not have a boom vang and see it as a "racing extra" when it is a major piece of safety equipment allowing a skipper to maintain control of the boat in conditions that are unsafe for someone with out one.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
In a series of articles published in Sail magazine in the 1970s, Arvel Gentry debunked some of the popular explanations of what made sailboats go. Since that time, nobody has seriously questioned any of his findings. One of his conclusions was that the slot effect is grossly overstated in its importance. I used to ponder over whether the slot was too narrow or too wide, but for a long time now, I almost never think about the slot when trimming sails on a racing boat. My thinking is that, if I can get the sail shape right, and if the telltales are streaming properly, and if the boat is pointing high and footing fast generally, then the slot will be just fine, without my even having to think about it. So, I give all my attention to refining the sail trim, and let the slot take care of itself.

You're not the only person around here who doesn't like the C25 traveler. My biggest beef with it is that, being situated on the transom, it is really awkward to use. Derek's modification goes a long way toward correcting that problem.

But, as far as the basic function of the traveler, IMO it works as well as any traveler on any other sailboat I have ever sailed. It has as much travel as you need when sailing closehauled. If you ease the traveler all the way too leeward when sailing closehauled, you'll make the mainsail luff completely. There's no reason for you to want to ease it any further, because you'll start to backwind the mainsail, and there's never a time that you would ever need to do that in order to achieve good sail trim. You don't need any more travel when you're sailing off the wind, because the vang will hold the boom down.

I agree about the need for a vang. My first keel boat was a C22 that didn't have either a vang or a topping lift, and I couldn't add both to the boat fast enough to suit me.

The rule of thumb of virtually all the racers that I crew for is to never bring the boom to windward of the backstay. I confess that, occasionally, when we are trying to get the boat pointing as high as possible, I'll sneak the boom a little higher than the backstay, but if I take it more than a little higher, the skipper will usually tell me to lower it a bit. I dunno what is the absolute right thing to do. Just do whatever you think will work, or whatever the skipper tells you to do, until someone comes up with a better idea.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 02/18/2014 13:41:42

pastmember
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Response Posted - 02/18/2014 : 16:42:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 Allowing the boom to rise is how I dump air in the top of my reefed main in a serious blow.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I do too, but dumping the mainsheet should be the absolute last thing you do to keep the boat upright in a hard blow.

...exactly, it has always been to keep people "hiding" down below from getting hurt due to the extreme healing and pounding that would result from going higher and faster.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> As has been said, the traveler is about opening the slot while maintaining the leech shape.

You know, ... I said that wrong. The only way to open the slot is buy easing the sheets. I meant to say that lowering the traveler is done to move the draft back in the main and ease up on the drive while keeping the leech tension where you want it to maintain drive from the non backwinded part of the sail.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
In a series of articles published in Sail magazine in the 1970s, Arvel Gentry debunked some of the popular explanations of what made sailboats go. Since that time, nobody has seriously questioned any of his findings. One of his conclusions was that the slot effect is grossly overstated in its importance. I used to ponder over whether the slot was too narrow or too wide, but for a long time now, I almost never think about the slot when trimming sails on a racing boat. My thinking is that, if I can get the sail shape right, and if the telltales are streaming properly, and if the boat is pointing high and footing fast generally, then the slot will be just fine, without my even having to think about it. So, I give all my attention to refining the sail trim, and let the slot take care of itself.

You're not the only person around here who doesn't like the C25 traveler. My biggest beef with it is that, being situated on the transom, it is really awkward to use. Derek's modification goes a long way toward correcting that problem.

But, as far as the basic function of the traveler, IMO it works as well as any traveler on any other sailboat I have ever sailed. It has as much travel as you need when sailing closehauled. If you ease the traveler all the way too leeward when sailing closehauled, you'll make the mainsail luff completely. There's no reason for you to want to ease it any further, because you'll start to backwind the mainsail, and there's never a time that you would ever need to do that in order to achieve good sail trim. You don't need any more travel when you're sailing off the wind, because the vang will hold the boom down.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I am old school, I set the headsail then let out my main until it backwinds then pull it in a bit and that is my slot, (until I tweak it two minutes later).

Edited by - on

OJ
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Response Posted - 02/18/2014 : 19:09:34

We installed a Harken traveler just aft of the companionway last summer and it is one of the best modifications to date. Stepping a couple of inches higher isn't an issue. When not underway we simply fold a bath towel over the bar to avoid any shin scrapes. As for losing cockpit seating we place throwable seat cushions on top of the traveler - essentially moving the bulkhead aft. No more navigating around the mainsheet. Last fall we had an accidental gybe and I was the only one who noticed. We have 3:1 blocks on each end of the bar and we can bring the boom to dead center with ease. It's also a good teaching aid for a newbie skipper - observing how the mainsheet functions while it is in front of you. Definitely a great improvement.

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 02/19/2014 : 05:44:12

Steve... thank you for going over all that, that helped me a lot. It answered a few questions I've had about the trav for some time now... the one buggin me the most has always been past the midline/ better pointing.. ( not )

Anyhoo... now I'll keep and eye on the twist, and learn even more about sailing.

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 02/19/2014 : 05:48:57

That is so interesting ... more speed by letting out the traveler.. sheeted to control the twist and gain speed from the winds aloft.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 02/19/2014 : 06:32:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redeye
 Steve... thank you for going over all that, that helped me a lot. It answered a few questions I've had about the trav for some time now... the one buggin me the most has always been past the midline/ better pointing.. ( not )

Anyhoo... now I'll keep and eye on the twist, and learn even more about sailing.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You're welcome. If we can't sail with snow on the ground and ice on the water, we can at least think about it.

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 02/19/2014 : 06:45:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redeye
 That is so interesting ... more speed by letting out the traveler.. sheeted to control the twist and gain speed from the winds aloft.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Right, and you want more twist in light air and less twist in stronger winds. It sounds complicated at first, but when you think about it, all at once a light bulb goes on in your brain and you realize that it isn't complicated at all.

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