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Overcoming the Fear of Tipping

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RAG Sailor
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Initially Posted - 05/14/2015 : 14:17:53

So, It's been a little over a year since I've owned my Cat25. I've been through ASA 101 Keelboat certification but yet I still am overcome with the sensation I'm going over.

I sailed for many years, many years ago on day sailors, Sunfish, Hobies and the like. Dumping over was part of the fun. Now that I have a ton of weight under me, the feeling is different. I'd like to know who else had this feeling when they started out with a keel boat and what you did to over come it. Thanks, y'all!!!!

Good to be back at sea!

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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4029 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2015 : 16:32:49

I'd say everybody had or still has that feeling at some time. For me its probably the strongest the first time out after the winter layup. When I got my boat I think the fear was more about not knowing what the boat would do. I didn't know its limits or when to reef. I was always way to late on reefing. I finally just took it out on a good strong breeze and just beat the tar out of the boat. I did everything I could to knock it down over and over but what I learned was that the boat would only go so far over and then would round up. After then I knew the characteristics of the boat and felt more at ease with the healing. Still catch my breath when hit by a rouge gust but now I just get a giggle out of it afterwards.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 05/14/2015 16:34:28

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 05/14/2015 : 17:40:04

quote:
Originally posted by islander

I'd say everybody had or still has that feeling at some time. For me its probably the strongest the first time out after the winter layup. When I got my boat I think the fear was more about not knowing what the boat would do. I didn't know its limits or when to reef. I was always way to late on reefing. I finally just took it out on a good strong breeze and just beat the tar out of the boat. I did everything I could to knock it down over and over but what I learned was that the boat would only go so far over and then would round up. After then I knew the characteristics of the boat and felt more at ease with the healing. Still catch my breath when hit by a rouge gust but now I just get a giggle out of it afterwards.

Absolutely! There's no better way of dispelling fear of what might happen than by seeing for yourself what will happen. I have, many times, pressed my C25 until the rudder came out of the water, and the boat was wallowing on it's side. That's a complete knockdown. No significant amount of water came into the cockpit, and nothing bad happened. I believe that, short of a freak situation, a C25 cannot be knocked down disastrously on a small inland lake. It would take big waves, in addition to strong winds, to do it, and you won't see waves of sufficient size to do it on a small inland lake. Try it. It's a revelation - and very comforting. At worst, you might take a little water into the cockpit, but it won't go below, inside the boat, and it won't sink the boat.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 05/14/2015 17:43:11

DavidCrosby
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Response Posted - 05/14/2015 : 18:42:36

I am going to chime in as well. My very first reaction when reading your post was exactly what the others are saying. Put your life jacket on, close up the cabin (these two items are to increase your comfort level) and go out and push your boat hard. Try to knock her over. It is not going to happen.

Once you find the groove, you might even find it fun.

David Crosby "Small World"
'02 C250 WK #614

britinusa
Web Editor

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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2015 : 03:12:59

During the first few months of owning JD, we got hit by one of those rouge winds, on a broad reach it just slapped us and the boat heeled. Scared the carp out of Peggy, but the boat just rounded up. The only issue was having to haul in the main to stop it banging around.

FYI, we always wear our PFDs if the boat is not tide to something (Dock, Anchor, Mooring Buoy)

For me it's a non issue, we took JD over to Bimini in 8' waves, she climbed to the peaks and swam down into the troughs, while Peggy was keeping the garbage can very close in the cabin.

Taking the ASA 101 course was a big step for Peggy, she stepped up.

Paul

Joint Decision. (Sold)
PO C250WB 2005 Sail # 841.

Moved up to C34 Eximius

Updated August 2015

mrapkins
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Response Posted - 05/15/2015 : 05:41:13

It is much easier to do all of what was said if you go out someone else who is experienced.

I had exactly the same issue as you. Once I sailed the snot out of the boat with a friend who just lied on the seat drinking a beer saying "beauty" I realized that the boat would handle more than I could.

Ben
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Response Posted - 05/15/2015 : 05:47:41

Pretty soon you'll be seeking out 15 and 20 knot winds. :) Whitecaps on the lake mean "fun" to me (as long as the docking isn't too hairy). When you're beating to windward, and spray is coming over the bow...for me, that's incredibly exhilarating. Learn how and when to reef too, that will increase your comfort level with healing, knowing you have the capacity and ability to reduce sail when necessary.

Ben
Beneteau 361
Viking Kitty
Columbus, Ohio

RAG Sailor
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Response Posted - 05/15/2015 : 05:53:48

Thanks everyone. All of your responses are terrific. In the back of our minds (btw, both my wife and I took the ASA course out of Palm beach, Fl, and spent time out in the Atlantic) we know that the boat will be more forgiving and that we'd end up rounding up. Now hearing everyone else's experience will give us more confidence.

One other question... Does a swing keel act any differently during a deep heel versus a fixed. Anything particular to watch or feel for?

Good to be back at sea!

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2015 : 07:23:12

quote:
Originally posted by RAG Sailor

...Does a swing keel act any differently during a deep heel versus a fixed. Anything particular to watch or feel for?

The swing keel provides 400# less ballast (1500 vs 1900), but is a foot deeper, and therefore has more leverage. I would expect no perceptible difference regarding its righting moment.

Some have wondered whether the keel might fall back into its trunk when the boat gets knocked down, thereby providing less leverage to right her... That would require going past 90 degrees, which will only happen with a very large, steep wave on the beam. I've heard of it happening with C-22s (whereupon they have sunk), but they have less ballast and considerably more beam relative to length and displacement--therefore can more easily go past 90 degrees in a knockdown. The C-25's relatively slender hull is an advantage for "ultimate stability"--the resistance to "turning turtle."

One caveat: Don't put 14 drunk people on a C-25! That has caused at least one capsize and sinking something like 15 years ago in Colorado.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage before going over to the Dark Side (2007-2025); now boatless for the first time since 1970 (on a Sunfish).

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/15/2015 07:26:41

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 05/15/2015 : 09:23:01

quote:
Originally posted by OLarryR

I generally will not go out if there are gusts over 20 mph and I prefer sailing in the 8-15 mph winds. However, anyone that sails a lot will wind up experiencing those days when a storm cam up quickly or some clouds came on the scene with unbelievable wind gusts.

I originally sailed on the south shore of Long island on 13-16' boats, then on Long island Sound in a brand new Oday 23 and since 2005 been sailing on the Potomac River with my Cat25. You would figure than on a river and being close to shore and somewhat a contained area that would not be subjected to rough conditions, how bad can it possibly get ? However, there are still those times when rough conditions can occur. I recall a couple of years ago, when I was out on a relatively calm day with 5-10mph wind. I was waiting for a sightseeing boat to turn off of the Potomac River and go into the Washington Channel before I then also got off the Potomac entering the Anacostia River to my marina. I noticed two small dark clouds in the sky but then forgot about them as the weather was relatively calm, those clouds were not all that close and just discounted them as no issue to be concerned about. As I waited for the sightseeing boat to make exit the Potomac, all of a sudden those clouds were upon me and with them unbelievable winds probably in the neighborhood of 50mph. This is no joke. In fact, the next day, the Washington Post published a photo of workers on a scaffold inspecting/repairing the Washington Monumnet that were also coaught in the winds - The photo showed them clinging onto the scaffold and that scaffold must have been around 30 degrees off of vertical aways from the monument - They survived. Meanwhile,my boat was thrown viciously on it's side and instinctively I let then main sheet out. Still, my starboard side was in the water but the boat righted with both sails flapping violently. It was also raining or more like being zapped from the sky. I was trying to maintain control but very hard, trying to keep some forward speed but sails flapping wildly and still way over to the starboard side. I then realized a big, big problem (besides dying)! I was making basically no forward speed but was drifting quickly over to the Bolling Air Force (DC) side of the Potomac River. There was no way to tack as I had no forward speed. The only way my boat would not wind up aground would be if I attempted a jibe. In these conditions ! I was really concerned even if I pulled it off that there was a good chance that I would lose a stay (standing rigging_ from the jolt/sudden impact when the main sail swings over. I decided that I would swing the boat rapidly to give the boom the more room to swing over as the boat would be turning quickly as well. It worked and I was then sort of out of control heading across the river. With all that I was dealing with and heavy rains, I did not notice the big motor yacht that was bearing down on me - he was heading for the Washington channel but turned his boat in a wide arc to avoid my boat as I drifted quickly across the river. The only way I figured I could gain control is if I could somehow head into the wind and then then roll up my 150 furling genoa. I had no real time to consider that may be impossible given the forces on the sail. But if I were to do it, the only way to head up was to get my outboard on. I did that but was struggling to maintain the boat level enough that the outboard would not cavitate...and I have an extra long shaft. I finally was able to head into the wind and to my surprise, I was able to furl my genoa. Then, even with the high winds, having the outboard on, I was definitely in control. As I entered the Anacostia River, the rain stopped and the winds dropped down to about 5mph...as though no storm had ever existed. It was then that I noticed it was those two small clouds that caused all this trouble and were now past me. I was a wreck. I had those 3/4 finger gloves on but my hand - 2 fingers had the skin basically ripped off of it. Took at least a month or for it to heal.

Bottom line is the boat handled well considering the conditions and having to negotiate a river being concerned not only with maintaining my boat but that I could control it and not run aground.

It is these experiences that give you confidence in your boat and your skills during rough conditions.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

RAG Sailor
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Response Posted - 05/15/2015 : 09:36:50

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

quote:
Originally posted by RAG Sailor

...Does a swing keel act any differently during a deep heel versus a fixed. Anything particular to watch or feel for?
The swing keel provides 400# less ballast (1500 vs 1900), but is a foot deeper, and therefore has more leverage. I would expect no perceptible difference regarding its righting moment.

Some have wondered whether the keel might fall back into its trunk when the boat gets knocked down, thereby providing less leverage to right her... That would require going past 90 degrees, which will only happen with a very large, steep wave on the beam. I've heard of it happening with C-22s (whereupon they have sunk), but they have less ballast and considerably more beam relative to length and displacement--therefore can more easily go past 90 degrees in a knockdown. The C-25's relatively slender hull is an advantage for "ultimate stability"--the resistance to "turning turtle."

One caveat: Don't put 14 drunk people on a C-25! That has caused at least one capsize and sinking something like 15 years ago in Colorado.

Hysterically great advice

We'll certainly remember that!!!!!

Good to be back at sea!

RAG Sailor
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144 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2015 : 09:50:42

quote:
Originally posted by OLarryR

quote:
Originally posted by OLarryR

I generally will not go out if there are gusts over 20 mph and I prefer sailing in the 8-15 mph winds. However, anyone that sails a lot will wind up experiencing those days when a storm cam up quickly or some clouds came on the scene with unbelievable wind gusts.

I originally sailed on the south shore of Long island on 13-16' boats, then on Long island Sound in a brand new Oday 23 and since 2005 been sailing on the Potomac River with my Cat25. You would figure than on a river and being close to shore and somewhat a contained area that would not be subjected to rough conditions, how bad can it possibly get ? However, there are still those times when rough conditions can occur. I recall a couple of years ago, when I was out on a relatively calm day with 5-10mph wind. I was waiting for a sightseeing boat to turn off of the Potomac River and go into the Washington Channel before I then also got off the Potomac entering the Anacostia River to my marina. I noticed two small dark clouds in the sky but then forgot about them as the weather was relatively calm, those clouds were not all that close and just discounted them as no issue to be concerned about. As I waited for the sightseeing boat to make exit the Potomac, all of a sudden those clouds were upon me and with them unbelievable winds probably in the neighborhood of 50mph. This is no joke. In fact, the next day, the Washington Post published a photo of workers on a scaffold inspecting/repairing the Washington Monumnet that were also coaught in the winds - The photo showed them clinging onto the scaffold and that scaffold must have been around 30 degrees off of vertical aways from the monument - They survived. Meanwhile,my boat was thrown viciously on it's side and instinctively I let then main sheet out. Still, my starboard side was in the water but the boat righted with both sails flapping violently. It was also raining or more like being zapped from the sky. I was trying to maintain control but very hard, trying to keep some forward speed but sails flapping wildly and still way over to the starboard side. I then realized a big, big problem (besides dying)! I was making basically no forward speed but was drifting quickly over to the Bolling Air Force (DC) side of the Potomac River. There was no way to tack as I had no forward speed. The only way my boat would not wind up aground would be if I attempted a jibe. In these conditions ! I was really concerned even if I pulled it off that there was a good chance that I would lose a stay (standing rigging_ from the jolt/sudden impact when the main sail swings over. I decided that I would swing the boat rapidly to give the boom the more room to swing over as the boat would be turning quickly as well. It worked and I was then sort of out of control heading across the river. With all that I was dealing with and heavy rains, I did not notice the big motor yacht that was bearing down on me - he was heading for the Washington channel but turned his boat in a wide arc to avoid my boat as I drifted quickly across the river. The only way I figured I could gain control is if I could somehow head into the wind and then then roll up my 150 furling genoa. I had no real time to consider that may be impossible given the forces on the sail. But if I were to do it, the only way to head up was to get my outboard on. I did that but was struggling to maintain the boat level enough that the outboard would not cavitate...and I have an extra long shaft. I finally was able to head into the wind and to my surprise, I was able to furl my genoa. Then, even with the high winds, having the outboard on, I was definitely in control. As I entered the Anacostia River, the rain stopped and the winds dropped down to about 5mph...as though no storm had ever existed. It was then that I noticed it was those two small clouds that caused all this trouble and were now past me. I was a wreck. I had those 3/4 finger gloves on but my hand - 2 fingers had the skin basically ripped off of it. Took at least a month or for it to heal.

Bottom line is the boat handled well considering the conditions and having to negotiate a river being concerned not only with maintaining my boat but that I could control it and not run aground.

It is these experiences that give you confidence in your boat and your skills during rough conditions.

Great story! Actually I am originally from NY. Sailed my first boat (Sea Snark - for those that remember the Kool cigarettes promotion)out of Bayside. My next boat was an O'Day Day Sailor (19'). Now I find my self in TN on Pickwick Lake (TN River). negotiating shoals and barges. Water does get rough and we do get quick burst of wind due to the surrounding land mass but nothing like open water. That is why I was grateful our instructor took us out of Lake Worth (intercoastal) into the ocean for a good experience of what waves really feel like in our size boat. Thanks for sharing!

Good to be back at sea!

glivs
Admiral

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Response Posted - 05/15/2015 : 11:40:46

I agree with testing the waters when the winds are say invigorating but the real purpose is to learn how to sail in those winds, i.e to keep the boat trimmed and relatively level to achieve maximum speed and control. When we first started sailing Great Escape the Admiral was petrified of heeling and then the worst happened. We had spent the night in a well protected cove but the wind had come up out in the main lake. The 30 footer anchored beside us raised full sails and headed out only to be immediately knocked down while the Admiral was watching. It took a lot of coaxing but we spent the day trying various sail configurations (main vs. 135 headsail...) to demonstrate just how stable (or challenging) sailing in those winds can be. Of course, however, back to your question...there is always the possibility of surprises.

Gerry Livingston, Malletts Bay, VT
"Great Escape" 1989 C-25 SR/WK #5972

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 05/15/2015 : 12:48:26

My only experience of a knockdown was on our original C22. Running downwind and with a poled-out 110 jib in 20-23k we got hit by a 35k gust with a 90 degree wind shift. When we broached and went just past 90 degree the swing keel (not locked down, stupidly) collapsed and she turtled and sank.
In the C25 in one race the wind went to 35k with gusts to 50 (clocked on the RC boat) We had a 150% genoa and a full main....we survived.
One other time we got hit by what was probably a microburst. Even with the main all the way out and flogging we were heeling over and rapidly approaching 90 degrees - for the 1st time ever I had to call for the genoa to be dumped. We stopped heeling and very slowly came back up. (5 minutes later we were becalmed! welcome to Canyon Lake sailing)
So take heart guys - a C25 is a heck of a lot tougher than most of us sailors.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/15/2015 : 18:49:07

All well said and true...none tougher and more forgiving than a C25...

Jerry

GaryB
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Response Posted - 05/15/2015 : 21:15:13

quote:
Originally posted by Derek Crawford

My only experience of a knockdown was on our original C22. Running downwind and with a poled-out 110 jib in 20-23k we got hit by a 35k gust with a 90 degree wind shift. When we broached and went just past 90 degree the swing keel (not locked down, stupidly) collapsed and she turtled and sank.
In the C25 in one race the wind went to 35k with gusts to 50 (clocked on the RC boat) We had a 150% genoa and a full main....we survived.
One other time we got hit by what was probably a microburst. Even with the main all the way out and flogging we were heeling over and rapidly approaching 90 degrees - for the 1st time ever I had to call for the genoa to be dumped. We stopped heeling and very slowly came back up. (5 minutes later we were becalmed! welcome to Canyon Lake sailing)
So take heart guys - a C25 is a heck of a lot tougher than most of us sailors.

Been there, done that on Canyon in a Hobie 16! Sheets released and going from zero to 17 mph+ in a couple of seconds over and over across the main body of the lake. Four or five boats closer to the dam were dis-masted that day.

Did you ever attempt to salvage the C22?

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/16/2015 : 09:43:32

Yes Gary. A scuba-diving friend of ours dove on her the next day and retrieved all of our personal stuff. Unfortunately, in the next few days the lake went up 30 feet and he no longer had downtime.
6 months later he tried to raise her using lift bags. Her bow broke surface and a bag broke - so down she went again. He finally raised her 3 years later (he had bought the title from the insurance co.) Then he got transferred to Scotland and as far as I know she is still sitting in his father's backyard...

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/17/2015 : 07:46:57

Do you have a clinometer? If it aint 30* it aint shxt. Over 20* and you should be focused, over 30* you should be serious. Remember that on the day sailor you never cleated the main in high wind, same here, keep the mainsheet in your hand and you will feel better. Anyone who has a problem with tipping is trying to fight gravity.. stop that. Find down and stand there. If down is the lee cockpit seatback then put your foot there. Down is NOT the cockpit sole, try to keep standing on the water surface. A great thing for new keelboat sailors is to lay longways on the lee cockpit seat while someone else sails her hard, you will realize the rotation of 20* longitudinally is trivial and it is only when you are perpendicular to that rotation that it SEEMS extreme. Find Down, get secure footing, use the sternrail to hang onto, watch the telltales and wind on the water; give'm hell.

Frank Hopper

Edited by - pastmember on 05/30/2015 09:22:19

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2015 : 08:57:50

I know the feeling is a "gut" thing with not that much logic involved, but there is some logic that might help... As the boat heels, two things happen that affect how far she'll go: (1) Your 3/4-ton keel is pushed up and out to windward, and the farther it goes, the more leverage it provides as gravity tries to take it back to vertical. (2) The more the boat heels, the less the wind can press on the sails, even if they're still sheeted in. When you get past 45 degrees, the force of the wind has gone to less than half, and at 90, it's zero. At that point, the keel is providing maximum righting force.

So, with a properly ballasted sailboat (which the C-25 is) that is not in huge vertical seas, for virtually any wind condition, there's a point at which the growing righting force intersects the diminishing heeling force, past which the boat won't heel any further. More to the point of our worst fears, she just won't "go over" like a Daysailer, Sunfish, or whatever.

Prior comments here describe finding that point of equilibrium, and in some cases testing it in pretty extreme conditions. "Blue water" sailboats have higher ballast/displacement ratios, but that's in order to be able to right themselves from complete roll-overs in huge seas. Coastal cruisers shouldn't be out in that, and lake sailors (other than the Great Lakes) won't see that.

Oft times logic cannot overcome the "gut", but it might help.

One more thought: On blustery, gusty days (and sometimes on quiet evenings), we often just pulled out our 130% roller genoa and sailed on that alone. The genoa provides more than half the drive on a C-25, and its area is centered substantially lower than the main. Thus, we often achieved 5 knots, and gusts had very little affect except for pleasant acceleration. Plus, with the roller-furler, it took pulling one string to be sailing, and another string to be all tidied up and ready to head back to the dock. If you haven't tried it, some pointers: Tacking requires a little more finesse so as not to get caught "in irons"--don't turn too quickly (to keep your momentum), and let the genny backwind just enough to push you around, and then ease the sheet on the other side, fall off enough to get some speed back, and then trim and head back up to windward. In strong winds, move your genoa cars back somewhat so the sheet flattens the lower part of the sail while allowing the top to "twist off" a little, giving you more drive and even less heeling force. (The "neutral" position is where the angle of the sheet is perpendicular to the forestay. In strong winds, move the car back to tighten the foot; in light air, move it forward to make the sail "fuller.")

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/17/2015 09:22:27

Voyager
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Response Posted - 05/18/2015 : 18:55:31

Originally when I started sailing, my boat was a 16 foot centerboarder that can and does go over regularly. With my then 250# weight, I was the ballast - hiking out to counter stronger gusts, shortening sail and balancing the boat in all conditions.
My experience was never to take her over. I've been over to 45� in her but never past that.
Once I started sailing Passage, I thought about it similarly to my centerboarder - but I was wrong. I used to always sit to windward, and would hike out when beyond 10�. Ah the futility! It made no difference!
One day, a buddy came up behind me and hollered across to me: what are you waiting for? I told myself, I've gotta push harder. So I hardened my sheets and heeled over farther and farther until I caught up. And there I was - before I was afraid, now my testosterone was in full control. The fear turned into excitement.
Moral of the story? Compete and that's the last of your fear.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 05/18/2015 : 19:13:04

It's funny, I let my little Knockabout 16 go probably 30 years ago, but I still move to windward. And no, it doesn't do anything to trim.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

kc5dlo
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 05/19/2015 : 09:41:43

If I have someone on board that is uncomfortable, I let them take the helm and let them feel what happens as the boat becomes overpowered and rounds up. After they find out that you cant really prevent the boat from rounding up and spilling wind, they start to feel more comfortable. It does not work with everyone but I have seen it help many.

RAG Sailor
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Response Posted - 05/19/2015 : 09:48:04

Good advice. I'll be doing that as soon as I am comfortable and I am aware of all of the boat's capabilities. I can't wait to get out there this weekend and start driving her hard! Again, thanks!

Good to be back at sea!

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 05/19/2015 : 14:29:11

"you cant really prevent the boat from rounding up"
But you can! It is a sneaky way to grab a bonus boat length to weather.
A helmsman in tune with the boat can sense a roundup coming. If you immediately dump the main about 6" and then immediately haul it back in you will do a "semi-roundup" and shoot to weather under control.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

redeye
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Response Posted - 05/20/2015 : 09:37:47

Add an adjustable topping lift to your main. Tighten the topping lift which opens the leach and let out the main and you will even out your sailing.

Not so much rounding up.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Lee Panza
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468 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2015 : 09:05:13

Ron, you started this thread by asking what others have done to help "Overcoming the Fear of Tipping" and I'd like to offer a suggestion. When the boat is heeled-over try sailing it from the leeward side. Switching the weight of one person from the high side of the cockpit to the low side won't have much effect on the boat, but it will give you a new perspective. I found myself to be far more apprehensive down there - so much closer to the water and with a sensation that the boat was going to roll over on top of me - but as I gained confidence in that position I've felt much, much more confident overall. Try it. As others have said, a Catalina 25 is a lot more stable than you might think. Just don't do it when there are other boats or fixed obstructions in the vicinity, because your visibility is very restricted from "down there."

As for the swing keel, I'll add something to the basic physics that Dave B. explained above. When the wind is pushing the rig laterally so hard that the boat is seriously heeled, the boat is sliding significantly to leeward. As the boat gets pushed sideways (it may not be noticeable if you're still making forward progress) the water sliding past the keel on an angle is pushing it up on the windward side. That same push is keeping it extended and resisting any possibility of it collapsing. The only way the swing keel can collapse is if the boat goes well beyond 90 degrees, or if a really large wave is able to toss the boat in a freakish way so as to un-weight the keel. Keep in mind that a 1500# weight held out at 90 degrees is exerting a huge amount of friction on whatever is constraining it. If the keel is tight on the pin (ie brand new) it would still take a great deal of force to get that slab to rotate. For the rest of us, the keel would be in contact with the side of the case, and it would take much, much more force to get it to overcome that friction.

You'll also notice, when you look at a picture or a drawing, that the keel is swept aft something like 40 degrees from vertical when it is fully-lowered. The head is resting against the aft end of the case, so there's no tension in the cable, but there's still a lot of force trying to swing it farther down. This is more than enough to keep it from being pushed aft by the water until the friction forces I described above take over.

In short, the swing keel is actually a very stable system that shouldn't cause you any concern.

The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)

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