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jeffj
1st Mate

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USA
63 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/23/2003 : 23:01:33

Call it bravery or stupidity but my first sail in 20 years occured today and I went by myself. It was fairly non descript until the wind picked up to about 15 knots with larger gusts on the Puget Sound and white caps began forming. To make a long story short, does anybody have a good way to keep the nose into the wind single handed? The tiller wants to swing violently and of course the boat turns broad into the wind. I tried wrapping a line around the port cleat, a couple or wraps around the tiller, then tying off on the stern cleat but that did not help much.
Any other single handed tips would be great as I believe I will be doing this again. I did use a flotation device and put the swim step down just in case.
Thanks.
Jeff J.
'85 Cat 25'

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2003 : 23:10:42

Get an autopilot...It will change your life!

I singlehand a vast majority of the time(everyday, if I can), in all types of weather and my autopilot is, without question, the best addition I've made to my C25. I didn't even know I needed an autopilot until I got one, and now I'll never own a boat without one. It not only makes singlehanding easier, more importantly, it makes it safer, by far. I would rather have an autopilot than a furler, or having all lines led aft.

As far as using a bungee or length of line to temporarily secure the tiller, in my sailing area(windy and wavy) this only gives me about 10 seconds of time away from the tiller. With an autopilot, the time is almost infinite.

A close second to the autopilot in aiding the singlehander, is having a furler. The furler is another device that I didn't know I needed until I got one. As a matter of fact, I was talking to a fellow sailor today who just put one on this season and he can't believe how much easier sailing has become with the furler.

With the addition of these two items on my boat, I have easily tripled the amount of time I spend on the water because these devices have made sailing almost effortless. If you like singlehanding, I highly recommend adding an autopilot, and the furler second.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - dlucier on 05/23/2003 23:32:37

Edited by - on

jeffj
1st Mate

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USA
63 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2003 : 23:23:34

Don,
So you're saying there isn't a "cheap" way. <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> I guess that is the boating life! Any input on which auto or where to purchase? I like the idea because I really do think I will be spending more time single handing late afternoons away and the Puget Sound is not exactly "Glassy" all the time.
Thanks.
Jeff J.
'85 Cat 25'

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2003 : 23:42:09

Well, I paid $399.00 for my autopilot(plus $65.00 for the cantilever) so it really isn't that expensive for what you get out of it. To me, it paid for itself the moment I first turned it on and let go of the tiller.

I have a Raymarine ST1000 Plus autopilot and I'm very happy with its performance. Others will say the the ST2000 is the better choice for the C25, but I think they are just trying to justify the higher price they paid for it. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Additionally, Simrad makes an autopilot, the TP10, that would fit the C25 and it sells for $299.95.

Check out SailNet, they have pretty good prices.

http://www.sailnet.com/

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - dlucier on 05/23/2003 23:45:45

Edited by - on

Doug
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2003 : 00:27:06

Hey Jeff- Where are you sailing out of? Doug Young and I are in Tacoma. Ever sail in the area?

Doug - #1913 Noeta

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jeffj
1st Mate

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USA
63 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2003 : 01:14:51

Don,
Paying under $400 sounds good to me, and my blood pressure after today! The thought of pointing the boat where you want it to go and keeping it there for more than 10 seconds makes good sense. I will check into it.

Doug,
My boat is moored at Shilshole Marina which is not TOO far from Tacoma, assuming the correct wind. What are your experiences on the Sound?

Jeff J.
'85 Cat 25'

Edited by - on

ddlyle
Captain

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302 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2003 : 09:12:02

Don, (or others)
I doubt if my Admiral will go for an autopilot since she usually helps me sail, but I'm curious.
How do these things work?
Do they have a windvane? What keeps them on course?
$400 ain't bad. Do I have to have a GPS or is that strictly optional?
THanks
Dave

Cap'n Dave
Sailing The Blues
1986 C25 sr/sk #5413

Edited by - on

folido
Deckhand

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Canada
11 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2003 : 09:41:45

Did anyone experiment with sheet-to-tiller steering? It could be a backup system. Last winter, my autopilot broke and I still had about 8 hours of sailing to do. I would appreciate any info.

Edited by - on

Doug L
1st Mate

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27 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2003 : 09:59:39

I added an autopilot last summer (Raymarine ST-1000), and I agree with Don, it makes all the difference if you singlehand. Trying to do almost anything while sailing by myself on the Columbia River(with it's 2-3 knot current) was a chore (or impossible) until I got the autopilot. I'll let others who are more technically savy explain how it works, but I believe it has an internal compass. You can feed GPS data into it to follow a specific course with different waypoints, but for me, the key thing is, it keeps the boat going straight, allowing you to let go of the tiller to do other things. I don't have a furler (yet), so must go up front to change sails. Its pretty amazing to look back from the bow while switching sails, and see that no one is driving!

Doug Lewis
"Breezy" 1980 SK SR

Edited by - on

John G-
Admiral

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793 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2003 : 09:59:42

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
It was fairly non descript until the wind picked up to about 15 knots with larger gusts on the Puget Sound and white caps began forming. To make a long story short, does anybody have a good way to keep the nose into the wind single handed? The tiller wants to swing violently and of course the boat turns broad into the wind.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Jeff,
It sounds to me like you were over powered. IMO it doesn’t matter who is steering, either you or an auto-pilot, if you have too much sail up you are going to have trouble. The Catalina wants to be reefed and the head sail reduced as soon as you see white caps. Being able to reef single handed is as important, if not more so, than any other single handed skills. Make sure you practice in fair weather so you can handle the job when it counts.
[url="http://www.catalina25-250.org/tech/tech25/tt008.htm"] Leading your lines aft [/url] to the cockpit will be the best addition to your boat in changeable weather.
Be careful and good luck.

Underlined words are a HOT link.
Click on the “Peregrine” icon.
 

[url="http://www.peregrinefund.org/"]<img src="http://www.peregrinefund.org/images/intro_mid_image.GIF" border=0>[/url]
[url="http://www.catalina25-250.org/photo/peregrine2.jpg"]"Peregrine"[/url] C25-#4762 FK

Edited by - on

Doug L
1st Mate

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27 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2003 : 10:04:11

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Doug L
1st Mate

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27 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2003 : 10:04:57

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Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2003 : 10:37:02

Hi Jeff,

I guess I'm confused as to why you wanted to "keep the nose into the wind ". Your boat will slow down and be at the mercy of the weather. A puff of wind or a wave can push you all around. You have to keep the boat moving, not slow it down.

Especially for daysailors and cruisers, John G said it right when he said, "The Catalina wants to be reefed and the head sail reduced as soon as you see white caps." I've sailed Snickerdoodle lots of times in 20 to 30 knots of breeze; several times in winds into the 30's; and a few times when the gusts were in the 40's and/or 50's (didn't intend to do the latter - got caught out). Regardless, being able to quickly reef the mainsail (Snickerdoodle has two sets of reef points with single line reefing for both) and shift down to a small headsail (I bought a storm jib after sailing for 6 hours double reefed w/no jib) as soon as you see the strong winds building is the "ticket".

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2003 : 10:58:30

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I guess I'm confused as to why you wanted to "keep the nose into the wind ". Your boat will slow down and be at the mercy of the weather. A puff of wind or a wave can push you all around. You have to keep the boat moving, not slow it down.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Ditto

Edited by - on

jeffj
1st Mate

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USA
63 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2003 : 13:05:39

Bill and OJ,
I was attempting to keep the nose into the wind while raising and lowering the mainsail. I did not raise a headsail for simplicity sake while singlehanded. I do like the idea of an auto pilot from other member's comments.
Thanks for the input.
Jeff J.
'85 Cat 25'

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2003 : 15:16:01

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Did anyone experiment with sheet-to-tiller steering? It could be a backup system. Last winter, my autopilot broke and I still had about 8 hours of sailing to do. I would appreciate any info.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Yes, I did years ago on our C25, #1459, 1981, SR/FK. Using John Letcher's input (Self Steering for Small Craft), and bungee cords rather than surgical elastic, it worked very well on a closehauled, close rech or beam reach course. After that, it didn't do so well, but steering downwind is easier anyway.

I had plastic cleats on either side of the tiller on the coamings and a cleat under the tiller itself. Tied one of the lines to the deadend part of the mainsheet, with a small block and tail line for the other end.

I got good enough with the system to be able to tack inside SF Bay all day long.

Then I broke down and bought an autopilot after two years.

It was great fun using the self steering off the mainsheet and taught me a lot about boat balance and sail handling.

If you want to try it, it's very do-able, but make sure you assemble all the right parts and points of connection so that you minimize friction. Lots of fun.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2003 : 17:00:38

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I doubt if my Admiral will go for an autopilot since she usually helps me sail, but I'm curious. How do these things work?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

The autopilot has a built in electronic flux gate compass that keeps the boat on the compass direction that you select. Some models(ST1000) have the ability to interface with other marine devices such as GPS, windvane,...etc, but these are not necessary to operate the autopilot.

The operation of the autopilot couldn't be simpler,...you just push a button to set the course and push another to turn it off. What is great about the autopilot is that it will do exactly what you tell it to do, without argument.

As far as leading lines aft, yeah...that's a good thing, but the autopilot operates on a different level. You can have every line led aft all you want, but it still won't help you steer the boat. On my boat, I have a furler so my jib halyard is just cleated to the mast base since I only raise it once a year, and since I prefer to raise my main at the mast, it too is cleated at the mast base. The only lines I run aft are the topping lift, boom vang, and the cunningham. The outhaul is adjusted at the end of the boom.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2003 : 21:03:51

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
and since I prefer to raise my main at the mast, it too is cleated at the mast base.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Don: Do you also prefer 10 lashes every night before bed? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Having the main halyard at the cockpit is one of the best upgrades I've made. For a single-hander (which I generally am not), I'd put it at the very top of the list. Then little more than a bungee with a couple of wraps around the tiller will hold the boat on course long enough to hoist the main. But I guess you youngsters like jumping around on a pitching coachroof...

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - dave b on 05/24/2003 21:07:28

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2003 : 00:03:39

Here's what I have been doing for quite a few years:

I attached lines from both sides of the pushpit with adjustable rolling hitches which go around the tiller that enable me to position the tiller to port or starboard as necessary to point her into the wind.

Under certain conditions when that isn't quite enough, I fire up my 9.9 at low revs and position it in tandem with the tiller to give her a little help at nosing into the wind.

At other times, you may want to postion the thrust from your outboard slightly counter to the tiller to prevent a tack while you are lowering your main, once again using low revs.

I hope this helps.

Mark, Silver Girl '83 lead fin keel, tall rig

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2003 : 07:57:48

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Don: Do you also prefer 10 lashes every night before bed? Having the main halyard at the cockpit is one of the best upgrades I've made. For a single-hander (which I generally am not), I'd put it at the very top of the list...But I guess you youngsters like jumping around on a pitching coachroof...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Dave,

Yes, I do like going forward. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Quite often, I find myself at the bow pulpit or on the windward rail. Additionally, when I go out for a short sail of say, 6 hours, only a minute or two is spent raising my main, but I spend considerable amount of time on autopilot. Another thing is I don't have lazy jacks, so it might be a tad sloppy for me to raise/lower the main from the cockpit.

Another thing is time, or a lack thereof. Because my kids(8 and 12) are still in school and I must pick them up, I have a limited amount of time during the week in which to sail(9:00am to 2:00pm). To maximize my actual sailing time during the week(I sometimes sail every day <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> ), I've streamlined both my getting underway and returning routines. It only takes me a minute to get underway from the time I set foot on the boat, and while I'm motoring out the marina channel(under autopilot) I'm readying all lines(main halyard, topping lift, jib sheets, furling line...etc), and when I'm clear of the last channel marker I'm removing the sail cover/ties and raising my main(since I'm already up there removing the cover)

My return is about the same. While in the the channel I'm securing the main, tying up all lines,...etc, so when I get to the slip I can simply throw 5 dockline loops on my cleats and go home.

I may eventually install lazy jacks and lead the main halyard back to the cockpit when I feel it to be the more prudent thing to do, but for now I just get a kick out of standing by the mast high atop the cabin, looking out over the open water and raising the main.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - dlucier on 05/25/2003 18:52:12

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2003 : 09:52:05

Don described very well the basic function of the autopilot which is to set "Auto" a course and have the fluxgate compass (part of the autopilot) provide the data to hold the set course. That function is the most often used.

There is another called "Track" which is more sophisticated and requires a gps interface. In "track" mode, data from the gps is used to hold a course on a rhumb line between two waypoints. These may be two waypoints that are preprogramed into the gps as part of an active "route" or it may be the current boat position and one from the gps "Goto".

The advantage is that the navigator is relieved from having to allow for leeway, current or tide set. While it is easy to take the track off the gps and apply that course in "auto" mode which would include course corrections, if the correction factors changed, then the course would need changed again...hence the great advantage of interfacing the gps... to allow constant corrections without assistance.

For sail management as per the discussion, the simpler "auto" feature is all that is necessary.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2003 : 12:13:18

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>a gps interface...The advantage is that the navigator is relieved from having to allow for leeway, current or tide set. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

For me the gps interface falls into the category of uneccessary bells and whistles and was not worth the double in price to get it (Sailnet occasionally puts the Simrad 10 on special for $199). Manually adjusting the autopilot to compensate for leeway, current or tide is very easy (literally requires pushing a button once or twice) and is a part of my normal keeping watch/navigation obligations. On a typical channel crossing of 20 miles, I only have to adjust the autopilot a few times at most. Now if there was something which would relieve me from having to drag my ass down to change the cd every hour or so...that would be truly great!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The only lines I run aft are the topping lift, boom vang, and the cunningham.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

The only lines I run aft are the furler and cunningham and I also single-hand a lot.

Most times raising/lowering my main is done while motoring through the harbor (i.e. without big waves) while going/returning to/from the ocean. And the other times (on a pitching deck), I feel it's simpler and not too difficult to go to the base of the mast with handholds within arms length everywhere (mast itself, boom, teak handrails, sliding hatch edge, standing rigging, lifelines). The upside to this is my deck is "cleaner", without a lot of lines running along it. Recently I was on a C30 set up for racing with lots of lines running through lots of turning blocks running to lots stoppers/cleats...creating a real cluttered, disagreable feeling/look to me. Clearly, others feel the advantage of running lines aft is worth the price.

Regarding the headsail furling line, the effort of going forward to the bow on a pitching deck is significantly greater, with less good handholds, than simply going to the base of the mast -- thus well worth running this one aft (plus my boat came that way).

My boat also came with the cunningham run aft, but I'm unclear if the benefit is worth the cost. On the upside, tightening this line is done when the wind picks up when there might be more waves. But again it creates clutter on the cabintop and it's pretty simple going to the base of the mast to make this adjustment.

Again, others clearly love the ability to make adjustments without leaving the cockpit. But I feel this comes at a cost of keeping to the KISS principle.

On a separate but related issue, my boat is kept further simple with no cabintop or mast winches.

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1772 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2003 : 13:52:12

Now if there was something which would relieve me from having to drag my ass down to change the cd every hour or so...that would be truly great! - Richard

I bought a stereo that has a remote 10-CD tower ... it plays, and plays, and plays ... I love it! Of course, every now and then I've got to remove the CD cartridge and put 10 different CDs in there ... 'wish I had some more of the cartridges so all I'd have to do is pop in a new loaded cartridge.

CDs, auto pilots, GPS ... are we spoiled or what?! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Buzz Maring
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>
~~Freya~~
C-25 SK/SR #68

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Rollins
1st Mate

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USA
50 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2003 : 18:23:38

Does the autopilot facilitate tacking? I've not had the guts to singlehand because I can't figure out how to handle the sails AND the tiller all at once. Will the autopilot handle part of this work? If so, how simple is it to do?

Mike Rollins
"Wind Walker" #5947 SR/WK

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martinsokolowski
Deckhand

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16 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2003 : 18:44:14

I have also used the self-steering methods described in John Letcher's book "Self Steering for Small Craft" with excellent results. I use new bungee cords rather than surgical elastic and have experiemented with different sizes and lengths.

To reave the headsail sheets to the tiller I have added a block to the port and starboard sides at the stern rail. Cost has been negligible and the results have been excellent. Also, since this is a mechanical system, it is reliable with minimal maintenance.

Martin Sokolowski
Plano, TX
martin.sokolowski@verizon.net
Catalina 25, hull #742

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2003 : 19:18:49

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Does the autopilot facilitate tacking? I've not had the guts to singlehand because I can't figure out how to handle the sails AND the tiller all at once. Will the autopilot handle part of this work? If so, how simple is it to do?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Mike,

My autopilot has a autotack function, but I haven't played with it much to have mastered it. What I do during a tack with the autopilot is,

1) Put winch handle on windward winch and put a turn of the lazy sheet on the winch

2) Release the traveller

3) Uncleat, but hold the jibsheet

4) Switch the autopilot to standby, and lift it from the tiller pin

5) Tack to new course and immediately set the autopilot on the pin and set it to auto

6) Release the now lazy jib sheet from the backwinded jib and haul in other jib sheet and trim

That's it in a nutshell and after you do it a couple of times, it becomes second nature and can be done quite quickly.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.