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Replacement Outboard Options

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timpky
1st Mate

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USA
41 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/08/2003 : 10:11:32

I am considering replacing the 25 year old outboard on my boat. I have read many discussions that have been previously posted and noted a strong following for the Honda 8 HP XLS 4 stroke. I'm not too sure that this is the best option for me. My boat is in salt water and although it is currently at a dock (fresh water available) it may not always be. (may move to a mooring). I do not trailer the boat. Since I am in FL where I am not required to go to 4 stroke I am considering staying with 2 stroke. Also, it is about 15 miles to the closest Honda dealer for service. I would appreciate any thoughts or recommendations that any of you may have based on your experience. Thanks.

Tim Peoples
Sarasota, FL
78 Catalina 25 SK Hull #875

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2003 : 13:19:18

I'd say go with the Honda 8 HP extra long shaft. You'll get a 12 amp alternator and a motor that's deep enough to stay in the water in ocean wave conditions. Since there is a dealer within 15 miles you can easily get parts and service, and parts are available on the web. The 4 stroke is cleaner running, quieter, and gets better mpg. It's also heavier and more expensive, and more complex to repair.

My Honda runs great and has plenty of power for moving the boat. Keep the fuel clean and dry. I have motored 6+ hours to cross from Dana Point to Catalina Island (40 mile ocean passage) with no problems and used about 10 gallons on an 80 mile round trip - motoring the whole way at 6 knots in calm (or no) winds.

Most problems reported with this motor have been trouble starting and idling. If you stay with a 4 stroke you may want to look at a Yamaha. More expensive. But probably a better motor (less complaints anyways on this forum but probably many less Yamahas in use).

If you are just motoring in and out of the slip for day sailing a 2 stroke is fine but if you're cruising, I'd stay with a 4 stroke (my opinion).

<img src="http://www.indiscipline.org/cat25/pictures/icon.jpg" border=0>Indiscipline 1978 FK #398

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2003 : 13:52:28

I have a tohatsu 8HP long shaft electric start alternator two stroke on the boat that we picked up this winter. We sail on Lake Erie and haven't had any problems. The Price was right too. (see link below)

dw

http://www.lebombomarine.com/

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2003 : 15:09:15

You'll notice that they have this 2 stroke motor:

Nissan
NS9.8BEF4
2 Cylinder
25" Shaft Length
Electric Start
Tiller Handle
12v Charging System
Remote Fuel Tank
Propeller
only
$1735.00

60 pounds, 6.7 amps of charging, electric start, Pretty good deal!

$1000 less than a Honda 4 stroke.

<img src="http://www.indiscipline.org/cat25/pictures/icon.jpg" border=0>Indiscipline 1978 FK #398

Edited by - on

77Gypsy
Captain

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USA
356 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2003 : 15:50:52

i have had tremendous luck with the tohatsu 8hp 2 stroke extra long shaft electric start. i don't use it on gypsy but have used them both on a hunter 23 and my old c25 swinger. they are basically nissans with a different sticker on them. extremely light weight too. you can pick them up from a comapny out of louisiana for a good price, i beleive $1300.00 they will ship too.
www.onlineoutboards.com

please let me know if you need more info.
sdf@rttl.com

Steve
78 C25 SR/FK - Gypsy
<img src="http://www.websdf.com/logo.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2003 : 15:56:04

If you've read the postings you are well aware of the problems I and several others have had with opur 8 hp Honda 4 strokes. Have they corrected the situation? Hqave a fix for it if you get one of the ones with these starting/idling problems? Mine was in for six months this past winter, and the authorized Honda dealer could not figure out what was wrong it. Admitably it could be a problem related to the boat being a salt water boat before I had her and for the first two years I sailed on the Hudson, before moving her to a fresh water lake.

I would recommend a four stroke, because they are more environmentally friendly than a 2 stroke. That should be an important consideration for all of us who sail, and enjoy the environment of water.

I would also want an xls. Just makes sense to me to have the whole thing deeper in the water, less chance for cavitation and potential engine damage. I guess I'll hold out, if my ob lets me for a extra long shaft.

As I've looked at o/b the past week or so, I've been impressed with Nissan four strokes, and they are less boat units than Honda. As someone said, no reported problems, but less population to have problems.

Hope this helps.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

77Gypsy
Captain

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USA
356 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2003 : 17:51:23

remember: nissan and tohatsu are the exact same thing except for the price. infact, my owners manual for my last tohatsu and the warrenty info was all NISSAN! you save about $200.00

Steve
78 C25 SR/FK - Gypsy
<img src="http://www.websdf.com/logo.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - on

eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2003 : 19:00:51

Does anyone have a Tohatsu/Nissan 6 hp 4-stroke on their boat? If so what do you think about?

Is the 20" shaft long enough?

Eric Werkowitz
C25 #4969

Edited by - on

77Gypsy
Captain

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USA
356 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2003 : 19:11:50

i think 6hp would be a bit too small, the 20" would work if he bracket or motor mount can get low. i know that on gypsy, a 20" would not work, i have some problems with the 25" in a little bit of wake.

Steve
78 C25 SR/FK - Gypsy
<img src="http://www.websdf.com/logo.jpg" border=0>

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jsummerfield
1st Mate

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USA
96 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2003 : 19:25:26

I have a 9.9 hp Mercury four-stroke that I bought in 1996. It weighs 100-pound. I have had problems. I bought the electric start model and added the manual shifter because of difficulties keeping it running with the tiller shifter built with the throttle. Mercury now has a different four-stroke series. I would likely try my luck buying something else if this one were to fail. I think that eight-hp is adequate. The price difference to 9.9 is not significant. Check to see if weight is a bigger issue as an 80-pound outboard would be easier to handle than a 100-pound outboard.

I have been surprised about the Honda complaints. Otherwise the Honda would have been my recommendation.

Having bought a four-stroke over seven-years ago I could not imagine buying a two-stroke in 2003. Most of us likes to support our own decisions. The four-stroke is very quiet and clean. In some circles two-stroke engines are regarded as bad-form. I live in Texas not California and I work in the offshore-oil business not the floral business. I am not a raving environmentalist. Still, I think that two-strokes will be banned by the EPA soon and recommend against buying one.

John

Edited by - on

77Gypsy
Captain

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USA
356 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2003 : 19:28:36

i think 2 strokes are more probne to stalling too right? it seems a 4 stroke idles a lot smoother.

Steve
78 C25 SR/FK - Gypsy
<img src="http://www.websdf.com/logo.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - on

matsche
Captain

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USA
280 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2003 : 20:48:05

Eric:

I don't have any personal experience with the 6hp, but according to Practical Sailor's boat buying guide:

"Under power, the Catalina 25 will make about 5-1/2 knots with a 6hp outboard, and you can coax an extra 1/2 to 3/4 knot or so out of the boat with an 8hp or 9.9hp engine."

For me, a lake sailor, that may just be the ticket. I want to keep the weight down. If 6hp is too underpowered, then I'd go with the 2 stroke 8. Would be interested in hearing from someone with experience with a 6.

John Matsche 1985 TR/FK #5171

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eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2003 : 21:07:41

John,

After reading the other outboard thread, I may just wait till Nissan brings out the 8. Of course my Yamaha keeps on keeping on so I just may have to wait till it has a coronary.

Eric Werkowitz
C25 #4969

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cch
Navigator

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202 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2003 : 02:04:50

We have been using a Yamaha 9.9 4 stroke with electric start on our swing keel 25 for several years. It has been fantastic. The only problems experiened have been our own, such as fuel filter clogged, fuel not fresh etc. Great power, smooth and quiet.

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RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2003 : 11:31:16

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Would be interested in hearing from someone with experience with a 6. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

John:

I've been using an '85 Suzuki 6 hp 2 stroke, long shaft (with alternator) which has been very reliable. Practical Sailor got it about right (5.5 knots). A heavy, weighed-down boat and/or a stiff breeze on the nose will reduce this somewhat. To me this motor has worked out quite fine. The additional .75 - .5 knots that a bigger engine provides calculates into only about 20 - 30 additional minutes that it takes me to cross San Pedro Channel (20 miles) if under power. Occasionally I'm heading directly into a stiff breeze which brings the speed down to about 4 knots when really loaded down, but luckily the frequency and duration of this condition is low. But in any case, this engine has worked well at what boils down to propelling the boat from 'Point A' to 'Point B' when the sails cannot or when safety suggests engine power. And the slower speed also translates into more time that a big grin is firmly planted on my face as I'm leaving an ugly, bustling metropolis and going to a beautiful, serene offshore paradise.

I really don't believe that in my lifetime the EPA or anyone else will ban outright the use of 2-strokes and I don't think they're environmentally inappropriate with the diluting power of large bodies of water such as the Pacific Ocean. However, freshwater, inland lakes are a different matter altogether, where 2-strokes can be quite damaging.

Cavitation hasn't been a big problem as my engine mount (Garhauer) seems to be set up so as to usually keep the prop properly buried. However, occasionally it comes up and I have to momentarily reduce throttle -- but a few seconds later I move on.

I'm not sure of the value of an alternator, because mine doesn't seem to put much of a dent in the ravenous electric needs that comes with cruising with children. But that problem has been solved by other means (Arlyn...thank you!).

I suppose electric start would be nice, but I don't mind pulling a cord. And electric start means more weight, another consumer of electricity, potential service problems, higher cost and doesn't follow KISS.

If I were forced to replace the Suzuki, the huge cost difference between a roughly $1,200 6 hp (4-stroke) or 8 hp (2-stroke) Tohatsu and a roughly $2,500+ Yamaha/Honda is a no-brainer. The considerable weight savings would seal the deal.

Further, Tohatsu has a different definition of "shaft length". I measured the Tohatsu long shaft in a store and it was about 3" longer than my Suzuki long shaft.

Edited by - RichardG on 07/09/2003 11:43:12

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2003 : 14:03:04

Before you buy a Yamaha check out the procedures for rope starting it if the electric start doesn't work. It is my understanding you have to take off the cover, and remove some bolts too to get at the rope. Not what I want to do in rough seas.

My 2003 8 hp Honda electric start tiller operated motor is great. You barely have to touch the start button to get it running. I let it sit for 3 months this winter, with no fuel additive and it started right up.

I have now been told to use a fuel additive even in the summer, as we use so little fuel, and it takes a long time to burn up a tank.

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2003 : 15:46:09

Last year when the boat came out I put the gas in the lawn tractor and cut the grass. So even extra gas at season end, if you have a season end, is not a problem. But gas additives are a good idea - gumout and dry gas have been recommended to me.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2003 : 15:48:50

As much as I have complained about osmepneo's Honda 8, I am very pleased with the ease that it moves the boat through. Less than half throttle moves it at hull speed, its not a little coaxing, its a piece of cake!

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

n/a
deleted

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163 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2003 : 17:01:15

Bombardier still manufactures the Johnson Sailmaster 8 HP with an XL shaft. Two-stroke, reliable, weighs about 75 lbs, and can be had for ~$1,500 around here (CT). I have a 1985 one that pushes Teasel just fine.

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matsche
Captain

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USA
280 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2003 : 22:26:14

Good info Richard, thanks. I don't think that environmental considerations are warrented for me either. I use about 3 gallons of gasoline per season. Whether burned via 2 or 4 stroke isn't going to make much of a difference. Especially when compared to the 30', twin engine 4-stroke motor boat in the slip next to me. He's probably eating up 3 gallons just getting out of the marina!

John Matsche 1985 TR/FK #5171

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timpky
1st Mate

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USA
41 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2003 : 07:31:40

Thanks to all for the kind responses. Looks like I should consider the two stroke option for the conditions that I use the boat. I appreciate the input and links. It is so helpful to learn from others experiences.

Tim Peoples
Sarasota, FL
78 Catalina 25 SK Hull #875

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2003 : 10:07:19

If you can go 2 stroke, that XL shaft Nissan looks pretty good.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

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John Bixby
Navigator

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118 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2003 : 12:57:19

I HAVE RUN THE NISSAN XL FOR TWO YEARS. AM PLEASED WITH THE PERFORMANCE. ALTHOUGH I HAVE HAD THE PROP COME OUT OF THE WATER WHEN THE SWELLS ON GALVESTON BAY KICK UP.
JOHN ON MS ACHSA #77

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Lowell
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2003 : 01:33:21

I too am looking for a new motor. I my 2000 8hp Honda long shaft stolen sometime during the week before the July 4th weekend. I've been considerig both the Yamaha and Honda 8hp high thrust models. According to everthing I've read they both weigh about 105 to 110 lbs. I'm wondering if the stock Catalina motor mount is adequate to support that weight. I never had any problems with my Honda but it rarely started on the first pull.

I'm leaning toward the Yamaha because of the way all the controls are located on the tiller handle. It looks like it would make maneuvering around the docks much easier. Also the price is about $200 bucks less. Does anyone have experience with this set-up?

Lowell Heenan
Dreamer 5655 SR/WK

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2003 : 03:59:55

Love my 2000 Yamaha high thrust 9.9. It is overkill, somewhat, but I wouldn't want less for the tough currents I face. A smaller, 8 hp 2 stroke will go nearly as well in relatively flat water, but big, oncoming waves will stop a smaller engine much faster.

Also, as regards someone's opinion, while I have never had to resort to it, the Yamaha can pull start EASILY with a rope. Move one pin, unscrew one knob (after removing the cowl, of course) and there it is. It's a snap!

Gary B.

Encore! #685 SK/SR

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Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2003 : 13:36:17

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Also, as regards someone's opinion, while I have never had to resort to it, the Yamaha can pull start EASILY with a rope. Move one pin, unscrew one knob (after removing the cowl, of course) and there it is. It's a snap!
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I pointed out this issue a couple of years ago when I was deciding on an engine... The external pull starter, stronger alternator, and 2.7" longer shaft leaned me toward the Honda. At that time, I explored the H/T Yamaha at the dealership, and it appeared (to me and to the dealer) that I'd have to remove 4 bolts on the flywheel cover to be able to wrap an emergency cord around the flywheel. Maybe we missed something--if so, the dealer may have lost a sale by not knowing his product. It was a 2001 or 2002 model. Either way, I don't plan to use the pull starter, but plans (and batteries) can go awry at just the worst moments, such as just off the jetty trying to make the inlet in a current with a dying wind after dark.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

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