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Rudder Stress Cracks

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sailgal
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USA
400 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/10/2003 : 12:15:48

Take notice of cracks in leading edge of rudder, will this in time rot the rudder out? I can't tell how board is manufactured.
Oscar is this similiar cracks to your rudder? Hmmmm.....

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3ce31b3127cce8f83b9b23bd20000001510" border=0>

Suzie, Tropical Sleigh
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da07b3127cce96a441e875780000001010" border=0>
WB #619 Sarasota FL.

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/10/2003 : 20:36:33

Same cracks....

Oscar, in Raleigh Durham making BU's

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 10/11/2003 : 09:41:26

Suzie,

I'm winging this answer, so its as much of a question as your is. The 1st generation rudder was made in a traditional way, by molding two halves... and then laminating them together. There was a very obvious epoxy seam showing the center line and that epoxy resin seam running the perimeter.

The 2nd I think was made in the same way as the centerboard and does not show a seam that joins two halves though I don't know how it was constructed. It way well have been constructed in halves, then bonded together and then a finishing coat which cosmetically covers the seam. The core seems to be a resin saturated wood chip which however didn't seem to show a center epoxy joint when I repaired my center board. It is fairly heavy.

The 3rd is a lighter construction and has a lot of buoyancy. I'm guessing it is a foam core?

The first may have been a wood laminate that would be subject to water saturation and delamination. I doubt the 2nd and 3rd are subject to this.

The cracks are likely the result of lateral flexing or thermal dimension change or both. Gel coat is a hard and somewhat brittle surface that isn't conducive to flexing and thus cracks. This can be seen often on a boat in places where points of strain of either thermal dimension change, tin canning, or flexing occur. Think of it this way... if the interior foam of the rudder heats up in the hot sun, then the rudder will grow and somewhere the gel coat has to have an expansion joint and has found it at that place on the rudder.

This is one reason that caution has always been urged about pulling a rudder with a dark painted bottom paint and laying that rudder in the sun.

Having said that, I however think that flex in this area may be the larger culprit

I think I would repair by grinding away a minimal amount of the chipping gel coat with the edge of a rotary sander, perhaps a dremel tool and then using a flexible bead of white 5200 to seal. This will leave the expansion or flex joint the rudder seams to desire and protect the interior from water intrusion. You won't have the freezing of saturated water to contend with as many do... that can be the death blow to a rudder that otherwise would continue to last a long time. Water infiltration however, is never a good thing.

But... this is a warranty item and Catalina should weigh in on it. In some instances however, its easier to do it yourself than hassle with getting Catalina involved and having to take the rudder to a dealer for repair. If Catalina outlines their repair approach to be as I suggest above... then it would be easier to self fix than get them involved.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - arlyn stewart on 10/11/2003 09:47:35

Edited by - on

sailgal
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Response Posted - 10/11/2003 : 12:15:38

ARLYN, Thanks for the info. I brought this situation to my dealers attention yesterday and will wait to see what Catalina directs him to do. If the repair is similiar to what you suggest, I will do it myself. I would think having them do it would take many weeks between shipping and repair...hate to be without it for that long, and northern visitors in early Nov. are looking foward to some sailing time!
Oscar how are you handling your repair with Catalina? Do you have to package and ship it to them? UGH

Suzie, Tropical Sleigh
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da07b3127cce96a441e875780000001010" border=0>
WB #619 Sarasota FL.

Edited by - on

Ray Seitz
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Response Posted - 10/11/2003 : 22:54:10

Got them too. My dealer didn't think much of them. I think Arlyn's suggestion is a good one, seal it off let it flex. However, I don't think I would sand it down much, I wouldn't want to make the cracks any larger. Mine has had them for two years and there has been no change. I think I will seal them off this winter.

BTW Suzie, cool picture it couldn't have been too comfortable taking that shot.

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d831b3127cce891ba4a976e00000001010" border=0>On the water
C250 WB Sea Major #628

Edited by - Ray Seitz on 10/11/2003 23:00:05

Edited by - on

sailgal
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Response Posted - 10/13/2003 : 17:26:52

Update...My dealer sent my photos to Catalina, and the Southeast rep. for Catalina (Ron) is coming to look at the rudder next week after his vacation. See what he says. Keep ya posted.

Suzie, Tropical Sleigh
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da07b3127cce96a441e875780000001010" border=0>
WB #619 Sarasota FL.

Edited by - on

frog0911
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Response Posted - 10/14/2003 : 22:15:05

I received my C250 owners manual today and in section 11-5 it says "Your boat has been equipped with a composite rudder". It also states that water, diesel, solvents or marine borers won't damage the rudder even if the coating has been damaged. As for repairs it only talks about cosmetic surface type which it says only needs filler. "Gel coat is not needed". From this it appears all you need to do is clean out the crack and fill it with caulk or epoxy putty since the core cannot be effected by water intrusion. That is probably why, Ray's crack has been there two years with no change in weight from being waterlogged.

Frog and The General
<img src="http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/users/3f514bcf_339f/bc/boats/__tn_Pretty+Penny.jpg?bc2LWU_AhL8DufLw" border=0>
79 Wing #1166
Pretty Penny

Edited by - on

sailgal
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Response Posted - 10/23/2003 : 12:57:15

Update on stress cracks...Ron the southeast Catalina rep (who I found out lives 10 minutes away) came out to my boat and took off the rudder. His on scene opinion is the cracks are cosmetic...YET he appeared concerned, he then took the rudder and will cart it up to the Catalina Morgan plant for further assessment and repair. In the mean time I waxed the stern an await my rudders return.

Edited by - on

arlingva
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Response Posted - 11/06/2003 : 21:53:00

Suzie,

I have exactly the same problem please let me know how they respond.

Thanks, Bill

Edited by - arlingva on 11/06/2003 21:58:31

Oscar
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Response Posted - 11/07/2003 : 12:01:20

Bill,

Don't wait, join the movement. Call Kent Nelson at Catalina 818-884-7700. These rudders are substandard in every way. They (Catalina) need to be held accountable.

See my (rudder) cracks here:

http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/rudder.html

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake

Edited by - Oscar on 11/07/2003 16:22:12

sailgal
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400 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2003 : 00:07:47

Bill,
My dealer sent out the Catalina rep and he took the board and tiller to the plant here in FL for repair. They did a good job and the leading edge looks like brand new, EXCEPT the guy could not get the tiller off the rudder so he took both as one unit. Some time between my rudder leaving my boat and being delivered back to my house (he didn't put back on boat because I had to repaint the now sanded off bottom paint) the tip of my tiller was smashed. He said he'll get me a new one, and drove off. It was then that I noticed the chip on the rear of the rudder.

This happened as a result of the tiller bracket hitting the board when carrying the two in one long unit. I left two messages as to what to do...no call backs yet. I'm gonna be at the ST. PETE Sailboat show tomorrow so I'll be visiting my dealers Catalina booth with pictures and more complaints...When the chick is mad watch out!

more to be revealed soon....

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2003 : 00:37:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Oscar
 See my (rudder) cracks here:
http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/rudder.html

Oscar
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Man, after looking at your rudder, Oscar, I think I can skip the repairs and get another 20 years out of mine.

No wonder you guys are up in arms. Best of luck!

Edited by - on

Oscar
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Response Posted - 11/08/2003 : 07:51:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">the guy could not get the tiller off the rudder<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Now that instills confidence....

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">He said he'll get me a new one<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

But you'll have to put it on yourself since he can't get the old one off....

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake

Edited by - Oscar on 11/08/2003 07:54:02

Ray Seitz
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Response Posted - 11/08/2003 : 10:25:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">See my (rudder) cracks here:
http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/rudder.html

Oscar
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Oscar the leading edge of your rudder looks pretty much like mine after two seasons.

Suzie he couldn't get the tiller off? Wow

it is not that difficult.

Edited by - on

Dkn420
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Response Posted - 11/08/2003 : 12:33:32

I guess I have a couple of years to wait for the rudder stress cracks, but I do have them at other locations on a new boat (See Spider Cracks). If this is a warranty issue maybe some kind of class action (group) letter to Mr. Butler would get more attention than going through individual dealers. The dealers are most likely looking for a quick fix to get people off their back and make sure they don't get a bad name for ignoring their customers.

On my cracking problem I've decided to seek out an independent evaluation as it seems no one from Catalina want to come to the boat and see the damage or gel coat failure. They suggested that I get an estimate from a local fiberglass person who would come out to the boat and do repairs and forward that estimate to them. No one from or representing Catalina had told me why this has happened. Has anyone from Catalina stated why the rudder stress cracks are happening? You can't solve a problem if you don't know the root cause...I would think the Engineers at Catalina would have thought of the issue of stress on the leading edge of the rudder and taken that into account in the design and production process.

Is there any chance that this is a fresh water v. salt water problem or a below the water line v. about the water line problem? Or, once it starts it just continues to grow?

Suzie, it is hard to believe that someone didn't see the ding in the rudder when it was re-done, although when my boat was delivered there was a ding in the rudder that was found when we un-wrapped the rudder to install it...Jerry on Penny II also had a big chip in the anchor locker on his boat when it was delivered...I agree with Oscar's rant that the Catalina quality control just isn't up to standards for the prices we all pay for the product. Too bad that Dennis Miller hasn't purchased a new C250, and lawyers can afford much larger and different manufacturer's.

Perhaps someone needs to start a factory defect and parts failure site?

I cringe when I see problems posted, but then I don't feel so alone in what my dealer calls "issues"...i

Dan #727

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 11/08/2003 : 13:12:10

Dan, times have changed. There was a day when a manufacturer might have been frank about what the problem is... but that day is gone. The word is say as little as possible, deny, don't admit anything....

For example, Catalina would never admit that the 3rd short had inadequate control... to do so might force them to retrofit. In turn, they also wouldn't say why the wing which is perported to be stiffer, requires the 3rd long. The simply say, it can handle a longer rudder because its keel is deeper than the centerboard on the water ballast in the up configuration. Thats a lot of dancing and a lot of BS.

The cosequence of all the dancing is... we have to sort out the answers on our own. I agree... you need an expert opinion in the form of the best fiberglass technicians in your area. Get their opinions, estimates and surveys in writing. It may get worse than that... but I don't think so. Catalina has a way of taking care of business most of the time.

I suspect these repair specialist will total your boat... seriously. Do not take it to only one... who may be hurting for cash flow and promise to fix your boat when it can't be fixed. If several say that it can be fixed... then you can feel better about it.

What has happened to your boat ... is a gross occurance much in the same way as the situation with frog and generals boat... maybe worse.

IMHO there is no way for a repair facility to totally remove all gel coat and replace... its probably not feasable either in practice or economics.

Catalina in my opinion is wrong for not sending the dealer or a rep to look at your boat...

Hope you don't have to get a big stick... aka lawyer.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 11/08/2003 22:51:09

Dkn420
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Response Posted - 11/08/2003 : 17:29:04

Arlyn: I understand what you are saying as before I retired a worked on large wildfire litigation cases during the investigations and through trial...Deny is the defense, even when the obvious facts go against them...I hope that they will do the right thing in my case and the dealer asking me to get estimates is the first step in the right direction...I also read the Catalina Warranty, word by word for the first time...it is quite interesting if you read it that way...What bothers me is the warranty was never explained before I purchased the boat, before they ask for full payment, before the boat arrived, not until the boat had arrived and they received their payment was I provided with the warranty...it is a very telling document when read closely...I wonder if I write an article about a "first time Catalina boat buying experience" they would print it in the Mainsheet?

I'll get my estimates and go through the process and trust in the good faith of the dealer and Catalina to make their product good.

I do think it is good that we all have a way to communicate these problems to each other so we aren't out there alone...thanks for the words of wisdom and help...I will post what I learn about the fiberglass issue and the ultimate resolution...

Do they make snow chains for the trailer tires, as my dealer is at Lake Tahoe

Happy Sailing...Good winds today in Northern California

Dan #727

Edited by - on

sailgal
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Response Posted - 11/08/2003 : 22:37:32

I feel for you Dan, those stress cracks are a serious situation that the factory IS responsible for. I was at a Sail Expo today and cracks not even half as severe where discussed in older boats...the result was major repairs in order and asap for the owner who brought the topic up...I thought of you.
With regards to my situation, I spoke to the Catalina rep who is coming out to look at my rudder (again) and replace the tiller. Seems like a fair guy. I can't understand why with such a new boat you can't get a rep out to look your situation. Keep my fingers crossed for you.

Edited by - on

Dkn420
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Response Posted - 11/08/2003 : 22:58:59

Thanks Suzie!

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 11/09/2003 : 08:13:22

As far as warranties... I may be very wrong, but there may be more than written warranties that are at issue with a manufactures responsibilities...

Edited by - on

Dkn420
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Response Posted - 11/09/2003 : 09:55:35

Arlyn...you are correct...I have already talked to friends who I worked with in the past...so I do have some pro bono advice for now...thanks, Dan #727

Edited by - on

Oscar
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Response Posted - 11/09/2003 : 21:33:36

I am a union member by the very fact that I work where I work. I don't like it when unions blackmail, on the other hand, they keep the employer in line. What I guess I'm trying to say is that at times organizing is justified. (Circle the wagons...)

How many members does the 25-250 organization have.....would it be worth wile to enlist the services of an "in house counsel"? Someone with a stick big enough to call Catalina or Honda or whomever and say "Take care of this or else...." Would there be interest to have legal protection for our members? The rudder issue, Frogs disaster (could have gone a lot less smooth, we know they tried), gelcoat failure, these would all be causes that deserve that kind of attention.

If someone was there for us, they'd have all the numbers in their Rolodex, know who's who at Catalina, and be able to kick some b*tt for a minimum of billable hours......

Maybe we could even make it a cabinet post...there has to be a liscensed mouth piece (that's lawyer talk) floating around on a 25 or 250 somewhere.

It would be worth 20 or 30 dollars a year ....and if necessary more for those affected on a case by case basis, to be refunded by the culprit in the end. Anyone else?

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake

Edited by - Oscar on 11/09/2003 21:41:18

Dkn420
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Response Posted - 11/09/2003 : 22:59:36

Oscar: I don't think any of us want to use "unreasonable tactics" against Catalina, but you are right about being organized so that we can be louder than just one voice or an individual problem...that was my thought about a "class action" letter to Catalina about the rudder stress cracks...a letter or communication signed my all with the problems should get more attention than a letter from a single individual...documenting those problems starts to build a foundation if it is ever necessary to take an issue farther into a process of resolution or of product liability.

I'm surprised that we don't have a current or retired barrister among the group. It would be nice if someone did come forward to offer counsel on some of the tough issues or on issues impacting a large number of owners, or a product liability type problem.

If Mr. Butler likes written communication then perhaps that is the best way to communicate with him and his company...I hesitate to formalize the issue I have at this point but I do communicate with the dealer via email and I do retain that email in case it is needed in the future. And at some point if I need to send Mr. Butler a letter I can asure you that he will need his attorney to explain to him what the letter is saying. A person only has one year from the time they are aware they have been damaged or discover a cause of action to pursue a formal action, so at some point a person can't let them string you along. In California there is the Small Claims Court process that one can use for damages of at least $5K, and it may be up to $10K by now, and the other side cannot bring an attorney into that process to represent themselves, they must present their defense to the Judge absent legal counsel, and if they lose they are on the hook for your costs.

I don't see that any of us are seeking an adverserial process or relationship with Catalina...we just want a good reliable product for the hard earned money we have paid for a boat...and it is not a simple drop in the bucket for anyone. Defects in the boat take directly away from the value of the boat...I can imagine if I decided to sell my boat what someone might think seeing the defective gelcoat when I ask for top dollar for a boat that is only a couple of months out from delivery. They would just laugh at me.

My ST60 Wind System hasn't worked since the boat was delivered, and I told the dealer, but I also contacted Ocean Equipment who installed it for Catalina, and they are sending someone to Lake Oroville to make it right when my schedule allows...they originally ask me to fool around with the connections and take things apart and I finally just figured that wasn't my job and I paid good money for the system to function as a part of the entire sailing system I purchased, so they can spend their time and money to repair it, but it is still a pain in the you know what!!!

If I buy another boat I will write or have an attorney write a contract for the transaction, and if they don't like it I will buy from someone else.

I may write an article about my first time boat buying experience of a Catalina product and request that they publish it in the Mainsheet...I know I'm dreaming, but I guess it could be published on the Forum? Maybe there needs to be a "Defects" page as there is one for "Technical" improvements?

I like my boat and have enjoyed it the little time I've been able to use it, but life is too short to deal with constant issues, or repairs, and the like...

I too would kick in some extra bucks per year for a spokesperson...not a bad idea.

Dan #727

Edited by - on

frog0911
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Response Posted - 11/10/2003 : 00:16:30

Dan, did you check your anchor locker front? Penny II goes to the glassman Tuesday for repair at Catalina's expense. Also someone mentioned that they had leaks in the cockpit combings in a response to questions I had on C250's. I did not put water in mine, but took a piece of piano wire and felt along the inside edge. You guessed it the wire went through to the aft berth on both sides. I am waiting for Catalina to authorize the repair for that at the same time they do the anchor locker.

Edited by - frog0911 on 11/10/2003 00:17:48

Oscar
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Response Posted - 11/10/2003 : 08:49:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">someone mentioned that they had leaks in the cockpit combings<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That was me. Since then I've discovered a poorly installed head port. Stick a garden hose on it and make sure it's water tight. And the lastest was the water tank filler hose chafing through on the bottom left snap screw of the v-berth "pouch" which was protruding through the fiber glass.

Maybe you can get it all done at once and get the headaches over with.....

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
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Response Posted - 11/10/2003 : 11:09:12

It seems likely to me that the manufacturing specifications for the rudder and centerboard will be the same. Do you all have the same cracks on your centerboards?

Edited by - on

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