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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Long Shaft vs Extra Long

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Randall
Navigator

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123 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/20/2004 : 08:45:25

The time has come to buy a new engine for my Hunter 25. My wife wants it on the boat by Memorial day, so that her Girl Scout troop can go sailing for the first time.

Larry Charlot gave me the info I needed to choose the engine: a Yamaha T8 with electric start AND pull start, and F-N-R control mounted on the extra long tiller for easy access. Thanks again, Larry!

My question: do I absolutely need the 25" shaft if I use a Garelick 71091 mount with 15 1/2" travel? A local dealer has a Yamaha T9.9 in stock now for $2200, but it has the 20" shaft. No one else in the area has any 8 or 9.9 Yammies in stock, and they all say it will take two weeks or more to get one in.

I have offshore dreams-- I want to take the boat to the Texas coast next year. We normally sail on Lake Amistad, which occasionally gets 40 mph winds and 4' waves or larger. Will I hate myself someday for not waiting a couple of weeks to get the 25" engine?

Randall
"Kite" '79 TR/SK dinette #1459
Central Texas

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/20/2004 : 09:10:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Randall
 ...Will I hate myself someday for not waiting a couple of weeks to get the 25" engine?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes.

Edited by - on

Blueye
1st Mate

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USA
26 Posts

Response Posted - 04/20/2004 : 12:40:58

I recently purchased a 8HP Nissan LS 2 Stroke...LS is desirable for sure.

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 04/20/2004 : 15:41:18

Don,
Especially with the home port of the Virgin Islands, I was hoping for a bette response to the question of long shaft over extra long shaft from you.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/20/2004 : 16:33:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Randall
 if I use a Garelick 71091 mount with 15 1/2" travel? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The travel is all up! It does not go down any further than the 71090, that is why I had to drill out the adjuster arms to get more down adjustment. The 71091 will not help you.

Edited by - on

Randall
Navigator

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123 Posts

Response Posted - 04/20/2004 : 18:38:11

Never really considered the up vs. down issue on motor mount travel! I plan on doing the "Starboard sandwich" thing on the transom of my H25. I'm sure the bolt holes won't come anywhere close to matching the ones in the flimsy-looking original motor mount. I can install the new mount as low as necessary, and I already have a big sheet of 1" Starboard to use to strengthen the transom.

However, there were two new developments today in my quest for the perfect auxiliary set-up:
First, I found a Yamaha T8 25" outboard that can be delivered in a week for $2600. The 20" T9.9 that is available locally is $2350. Shipping on the T8 is $250 of the cost. The two extra horses would be nice (braggin' rights), but apparently are less important than the extra shaft length.
Second, I called Catalina Direct to see if they sold the Garelick 71091. Lowell came to the phone and advised that he is working with someone to have the original style mounts reworked with three and four springs, instead of the original two, to provide the lift necessary for heavier 4 strokes. He added my name to the list of prospective customers if/when the new design is ready for marketing.

Actually, I guess there were three developments. I looked at the calendar and realized that Memorial Day is the end of NEXT month, not this one. I have plenty of time to buy the right stuff and install it before the big Girl Scout outing. "DUHHHHH, Dad", as my 9 year old daughter would say.

Edited by - on

LeighMarie
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USA
188 Posts

Response Posted - 04/20/2004 : 21:17:03

For what it's worth, I bought a Honda Long Shaft in June of 2002 because that was all they had and they "thought" it would work. It didn't. I ended up selling that new engine at the beginning of the next year and bought an Extra Long Shaft. I could have "made do" with the original, but in a chop it was coming out, especially when we really needed it. The comfort and safety of my wife and family made me do the right thing and get the right motor, even though I lost money on the deal. I even have a new motor mount and in order to do it right, you should go with the Extra Long Shaft.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/20/2004 : 21:19:47

Randall: First, regarding the 1.9 horses--fuggetaboutit!! The Yamaha T8 will have more power and thrust than you will ever use, and by that I mean EVER.

Next, shaft length: You're right that you can position bracket accordingly, but that could put your powerhead a little closer to the water than you'd really prefer in heavier seas (when the depth is most critical). You could even end up dragging the engine mounting board in the water.

I'll offer a guideline that you want the "anticavitation / antiventilation" plate at least 5" below your static waterline to hold cavitation to a reasonable minimum in a chop. With a 20" shaft, that means the top of the board is only 15" above waterline. Draw a mental picture of that, and I think you'll want to "do the right thing." You'll love it!

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/20/2004 : 22:15:07

Randall
Lowell has been talking about the redesigned motor mount for at least 6 mo. You may need to do something else. Here is how the 71091 worked out with the notch added.

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Randall
Navigator

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123 Posts

Response Posted - 04/20/2004 : 22:36:29

I was missing the obvious! I need the powerhead up as high as possible to keep it from being swamped, and to make it accessible.

My H25 has a lazarette across the stern and an internal rudder, so in effect, the outboard is 2' further away from me on the Hunter than when I'm helming my Cat 25. If I mount the engine up high, the tiller can swing down closer to horizontal, making it more accessible. The Yamaha T8 has an extra long tiller with the F-N-R lever mounted on it for easy access. Sounds perfect!

That precipitates a new question. Since motor mount travel only translates to upward motion, would I be better off buying a mount with shorter travel, like the Garelick 71090? That way, the powerhead would be closer to me, and it would reduce the lever arm length, so that the 114 lb motor wouldn't exert as much downward force on the stern.

Am I finally tracking here?

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2004 : 06:19:04

Hey Frank
I like what you did to your motor mount. Can you give a close up picture of what you did, and a good description. I have the same mount and really want to do the same thing, I just haven't figured out how.
You get my vote for the next Nobel Prize in motor mount modifications.

to the other discussions: I have been talking with Lowell about this for over a year.
And last but not least. Do not even consider anything but an extra long shaft if you have any waves bigger than 2 inches.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2004 : 08:09:34

I judged the distance to the next new notch based on the old distances between the existing notches. When I put it all back together I needed to file the bracket some because the lifting handle ran into the mount and would not let it go far enough down to lock in place, I would use what you see here and subtract 1/4" . The difference in travel will amaze you. Also, take off the rubber grip on the handle for more clearance. I don't expect to raise my mount. I had no trouble getting to the engine when sailing.

Note the handle location relative to the mount.

Edited by - on

Bruce Baker
Captain

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USA
402 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2004 : 13:28:58

I "upgraded" from my Evenrude 8 XL to a Nissan 8 long shaft. The Nissan comes out of the water in heavy chop. I'm looking to sell both motors and buy a new XL shaft motor.

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2004 : 06:12:37

Frank:
When you removed your support brackets to notch them out did you completely remove the pins on the top and the bottom? I'm concerned about the very powerful springs popping and then not being able to get it together again. Or maybe you took one out at a time and then put in temporary bolts?
I wanna know exactly how you did it so I don't screw up
Thanks

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2004 : 08:02:58

as I recall I put the OB on to reduce the spring issue. The top pin is not an issue. I was surprised with how easily the arms came off and how the springs were not really an issue.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2004 : 11:26:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Randall
 ...Since motor mount travel only translates to upward motion, would I be better off buying a mount with shorter travel, like the Garelick 71090? That way, the powerhead would be closer to me, and it would reduce the lever arm length, so that the 114 lb motor wouldn't exert as much downward force on the stern.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Randall: I believe (others can confirm) that the lever arm length of the 091 is offset by stronger springs, based on the weight it is rated for. You might have to push your 114# motor down to get it to the lowest position. With Frank's modification, the engine may be closer to the transom than with the shorter 090 bracket (unmodified). Have you considered remote throttle/shift controls? Your lazarette and inboard rudder post make that sound like it might be worthwhile. Otherwise, around a dock, I'm trying to picture how you're going to manage the engine and the tiller together.

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Randall
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123 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2004 : 13:27:09

I'm wondering about that too, Dave. I should find out next weekend.

My deal fell through on a 25" Yamaha T8 when the salesman at Ed's Marine Superstore found that it was actually a 20" with power tilt that they had in stock. They said it will be June-July before they can get a 25", which is what all the local dealers are telling me.

So, I've got the carb torn down on my Honda 5 as we speak, and two new impellers are in the mail. Once I get it tuned up, I'll test it on the Hunter next week. If I can get by with the 20" Honda, I'm sure I'll be happy with the T8. If it seems too awkward, maybe I'll consider the remote set-up. My main reason for not going with the remote is so I can steer with both the motor & tiller in tight quarters. If it turns out that being able to motor steer isn't a huge benefit, I will definitely consider a remote set-up. How cool would it be to have remote controls & power tilt-- only go near the transom when I'm climbin' up the swim ladder!!

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2004 : 20:31:26

Tough luck, but it's just a temporary setback.

The performance difference between a 20" Honda 5 and a high-thrust 25" Yamaha or Honda 8 is as profound as the weight difference! I wouldn't put the 5 to too much of a test (seas or breeze), but regardless of how it does, it'll be no indication of the 8. Good luck with the hand-foot coordination! (Do you have a tiller extension?)

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Randall
Navigator

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123 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2004 : 10:12:12

No, but that's a good idea, Dave. For normal use I could remote the controls into the cockpit, just like on a proper yacht, and use a tiller extension on the rare occasions when I need to motor steer in tight quarters!

But what about power tilt, would that be a useful option on a hard-to-get-to engine?

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2004 : 11:01:11

I wouldn't want to be without a tiller steered motor. Tiller steering definitely helps in docking, and it is a good backup for a broken rudder.

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atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2004 : 20:01:02

Have you given any consideration to the new Tohatsu/nissan offering? It looks like the awesome sailmaster replacement Johnson never built. The only potential negative I see is the fact that it is brand new. Nissan/Tohatsu are awesone companies and have probably already worked the bugs out. And they come with a 3 yr warranty. Looks to be ONLY about 2G's with shipping. Just a thought. Here is a link to buy one.
http://www.onlineoutboards.com/#

Edited by - atgep on 04/24/2004 20:07:19

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2004 : 22:05:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Randall
 ...what about power tilt, would that be a useful option on a hard-to-get-to engine?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I have no opinion on that--if I'm not seriously trying to get someplace, I tend to leave the engine down, out of gear, while sailing. Then, when it's time to use it, it just takes a push of the button. After I raise the bracket, tilting the 108# Honda is not that big a deal, but I don't have that lazarette.

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Randall
Navigator

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123 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2004 : 18:35:16

I'm open to any brand of engine that has the controls logically located. Having the tiller on one side and the F-N-R lever on the other side is a NO-GO in my book. I like the lighter weight of the Nissan, but their site doesn't show where the F-N-R lever is located. They also require that a dealer do the installation of remote control models, translating to more money out of pocket.

How do I get finger tip controls, retain the ability to steer with both tiller and engine, AND keep both electric and retractable manual start?

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2004 : 19:51:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Randall
 
How do I get finger tip controls, retain the ability to steer with both tiller and engine, AND keep both electric and retractable manual start?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's what I have...

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DreamCatcher
Deckhand

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USA
9 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2004 : 23:39:07

Definitely get the Extra long shaft!!!!!!!!!
I had mine lengthened from 20 to 25 inch. When the wind picked up our boat would hobbyhorse and the motor would come out of the water on every wave. Not good for the motor! Then in the trough the power head would come close to the water so I would not want to lower it at all. Since it was lengthened, It rarely comes out. It was very dangerous because in severe blows, the motor was useless and we had to ride it out until the wind subsided.

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bsmudd
1st Mate

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61 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2004 : 12:00:09

I have a long shaft and it sounds terrible in any type of waves. I've never had a "problem", as in engine failure, but just the sound alone is enough to know the engine is unhappy and the extra long would be better

What is the "starboard sandwich"?

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