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rclift
Navigator

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USA
152 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/22/2004 : 13:08:21

It became clear at Nationals that there needs to be a discussion among the members about how to equalize the "playing field" among catalina 25's, 250's and tall rigs without creating yet more fleets and divisions that reduce the number of boats that are competing against each other.

Fleet 94 attempted to take into account the different headsail, spinnakers configurations by assigning different phrf #'s. Others were adament that if spinnakers were used they would have to be in a different spinnaker fleet. Potentially, if you follow the current class rules, you could have 6 or more fleets going with just a few boats in a fleet. Also, our class rules don't speak to the use of assymetrical spinnakers or whether or not a whisker pole could be used with the assym.

To my mind if we're going to assign phrf numbers then there is no reason to have any more then 1 fleet with all boats competing against each other. If that were the case we really need to spend some time and research coming up with acceptable handicapping numbers that actually represent our boats depending on the keel and sail configuration.

If we are going to go the "one design" route with the present fleets then we need to be much more specific about sail limitations. Right now we have tall rig c250's carrying a 150 headsail competing against standard rig c250's carrying a max 135 headsail which is hardly a one design competition.

We, as an association, need to gather information from the membership over the next several months and then modify the class rules to reflect the consensus. As an association we then need to vote on those changes. Having each local venue try to create a fair competition is very difficult and potentially leads to bad feelings among the participants.

Ray Clift
Buzz 1361 sk/tr
Oregon

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2004 : 14:15:15

You are absolutely right, Ray, and I, personally, would welcome a calm discussion on this forum. A HUGE discussion is already taking place with a few officers and interested parties off this site, but I think it is perfectly appropriate to discuss it here with the membership. Nobody

It is worth a note that nearly ANY rule can be changed within the Association with a membership vote. And no rule can be permanently changed by just the officers, or I am sadly mistaken.

I think that discussion of the solutions to our dilemma is good for all of us. We simply are NOT one design.

However, I personally would rather accept a PHRF number to adjust the sail area differences between a TR and a SR C25 than race with numbers against a 250, because not just the rig, but the hull is so different. They are two species of the same length, IMHO, so right now I would argue that we need at least TWO fleets; tradition says 3: TR, SR, 250, and that is what the 3 permanent, traveling trophies represent.....

I suppose that there is no way to make everyone happy, but we sure need clarification on a number of issues.

Thanks, you TR monster, you...

Gary B.
Vice Commodore (until elections)
s/v Encore! #685 SK/SR

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2004 : 14:25:46

I agree wholeheartedly with Ray. However, getting an accurate rating for the C250's will be a problem because of the paucity of them racing around the Country. They seem to be rated an average of 228 - 231. IMHO this differential is inadequate when raced against a C25TR. As for the tall rig C250 it is not listed at even one venue in the PHRF Handbook. The C25's rate an average of 222 for the TR and 228 for the SR. None of these numbers allows for differences in headsail size.
Should a boat with a 135 get an extra 6 secs (or maybe 12). Should we rate on the basis of a 135 and penalize the 150's???
How do we calculate the differential between an asym and a regular chute? The pole question on an asym is another problem.
Unfortunately, it appears that no authority around the Country has addressed the issue. Until some governing body does this, maybe we should ban them...

I think that we still need to race in 3 fleets - C25 TR's, C25 SR's and all the C250's. But I sure as heck don't want to be the handicapper...
Derek

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2004 : 14:41:10

The National Regatta has been run in basically the same manner for 30 years. IMHO, the rules provide sufficient guidance for each club that volunteers to organize the event. The rules only need to be changed if we want to make some fundamental change in the organization of the event.

There is a tendency among people who are involved in organizing the national regatta for the first time to perceive a need to completely re-vamp the rules. If they can restrain themselves from doing so, they usually come to understand the rules better, and, after reflection, realize that the rules actually work rather well.

Derek asks: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Should a boat with a 135 get an extra 6 secs (or maybe 12). Should we rate on the basis of a 135 and penalize the 150's??? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> The existing rules answer that question. (The boat's rating is based on a 155 headsail. No rating differential is made for smaller sails. If you provide different ratings for different jibs, you enable racers to make headsail choices based on handicap ratings, and not based on which sail is the best choice for the wind conditions. That's not good for racing. ) There's no reason to change the rule unless you don't like the answer that is provided by the existing rule.

A group of officers and others are in the earliest stages of discussing this subject, but it is way too early to bring this before the membership. Let the group clarify their thinking and develop some proposals, or alternatives, and then the members can consider those proposals, as well as offering their own suggestions.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 07/22/2004 14:57:04

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2004 : 14:43:23

I have stated before that I want the 2005 Nationals to be a PHRF event with a single start and a single fleet; that gives us a national champion. The purpose of the class rules should be to preclude contrived sailing advantages not to create fleets. The transom wide traveler on one of our boats at Cheney is an example of a rule buster.
The Asymmetrical spinnaker issue should be handled by a request to the PHRF national people for guidance. While I admire and respect everyone here I really don't care what their opinion is relative to the chute issue, it is a question for a national handicapping authority to answer.

Edited by - on

SJ
Navigator

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USA
198 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2004 : 14:45:40

If there are no AHJ's that have done any type of ratings, it seems to me that what we should do is go back through the results of the past National regattas and start working out time differentials etc for the different boats. Base rate on the CAT25 is something like 225ish.....Once we can determine a basic pattern we can then assign a rating to each class. Spin and JAM need to be seperate divisions. 250's and 25's can sail together as long as they have the ratings to go along with it. Also, start having the racers start sending in as much info on race results that they can. Some homework, yes but doable.

Edited by - on

SJ
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198 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2004 : 14:56:06

As for the Assym's, there is a penalty for having the sail in inventory. Would reflect on the PHRF cert as well. Usually only a few seconds, but also remember that Assym's do not sail as deep as true syym's so that when there is breeze, an Assym is going to be sailing much more distance. What we saw at this years nationals was very light air, thus any boat with a Syym spin was forced to reach, and unless thay had a specific reaching chute would never be able to sail as high as a boat with an Assym. Our Wendsday night series in Northport has a mix of both types of chutes. For the record I sail on a frers 33, big mast head Syym chute for this size boat. Two weeks ago very light breeze and a J92 and Antrium 27 BLEW Our doors off down hill. We of course crush them uphill, but that is a differnt story. Last night Med breeze we sailed much deeper ant hey could not catch up as they had to sail much greater distances. So it really does depend on the conditions. You do however need to declare the sail inventory before the regatta. So if there is good breeze predicted stay with the Syym and light air like this years national....go with the Assym....Ok, I know long winded without much substance but I hope you got the jist of what i was going for...

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2004 : 15:28:19

"No rating differential is made for smaller sails"
Steve - somehow I don't think that is fair. We need to encourage people to come to the Nationals and if their boat has only a factory 135 they are at a huge disadvantage and I feel that they should be compensated.
I do agree that for the nonce we should leave this whole quandary to the Officers (it's what they don't get paid for

) and only when they have some specific suggestions should it go to the membership.
Derek

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
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Response Posted - 07/22/2004 : 16:09:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">"No rating differential is made for smaller sails"
Steve - somehow I don't think that is fair. We need to encourage people to come to the Nationals and if their boat has only a factory 135 they are at a huge disadvantage and I feel that they should be compensated. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">At almost every national regatta that I've attended, a 135 would have been at least competitive, and, if it was well-sailed, could have won. When you race in the national regatta, you don't have to own the sails that you use. You can borrow a 150. I borrowed a heavy duty whisker pole to race in the C25 nationals one year.

The first time I raced in the nationals, one boat had 3 differently cut spinnakers to choose from, a whole array of custom made laminated headsails, a crew made up mostly of J24 skippers, and a tactician provided by the sailmaker, who wanted bragging rights. I cleaned his clock with my dacron 110 and 150 and no spinnaker until the fifth race, when the grommet ripped out of the head of my 150, and the whole fleet passed me.

Handicaps don't have to create perfect parity among all the racers. All they should do is ensure that everyone has a decent, fighting chance to win. If you insist on creating perfect parity, then you should make different allowances for dacron sails and laminated sails, because "...dacron sails give you such a big disadvantage that they should be compensated." What about a boat that has old sails vs. new sails? Shouldn't the boat with old sails be "compensated, to encourage more people to come to the nationals?" Where do the attempts to equalize everyone end?

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 07/22/2004 : 17:41:19

"What about a boat that has old sails vs. new sails?"
That's a fair point Steve - but I think it's getting to "reductio ad absurdum!
I don't think you can ever achieve perfect parity - but giving an allowance for smaller headsails (and factory issued ones in the case of the C250's) would at least partially level the playing field. I felt very sorry for the guys on the Columbia with 135's - trying to go against a 2 knot current in a 3 knot wind.
On Canyon Lake we give allowances for headsails in our Cruiser Fleet.It has made the fleet competitive and has encouraged participation - we have gone from 4 boats to 15 since we instituted it.
Derek

Edited by - on

rclift
Navigator

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USA
152 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2004 : 17:53:18

My point Steve is that the officers need to hear the opinions of the membership prior to making new rules rather then after. If we were to follow the class rules at this nationals we would have possibly ended up with six fleets rather then three. At a "onedesign" event we should be going for fewer fleets rather then more.

I believe the C250 is limited to a 135 headsail unless it came from the manufacture as a 150. That can't be a fair rule for racing.

If the association wants to make sure there are only 3 fleets they could adopt a no spinnaker policy with max headsail size, end of story. Considering, however, the array of sails that are available to c25/250 owners I think we need to address those changes and possibly accomodate them at national or regional regattas.

Although I haven't heard all the discussions among the officers it seemed clear to me that there is no concensus about what type of proposal they would put to the membership. One of the beauties of the internet is that they can take advantage of the thinking of 100's of members to base their decisions. Cliff, if you get a chance share with the group the information you gave us at nationals about the growth of our membership. I was totally impressed.

Frank, we had a lot of difficulty finding representable numbers to give the 250's. Not many of them are raced in phrf events. It might be the case that the experience of this group could better come up with a fair number then the national phrf folks. I do like your idea about 1 fleet but I have no idea how that would be done fairly.

Edited by - rclift on 07/22/2004 18:04:01

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2004 : 19:09:47

Are you allowed to come to nationals if you really don't care if you win or not, or how you rate, but just wanna have some fun, drink beer, tell lies, and be a participant in the race, rather than a competitor?

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2004 : 19:14:09

Ray, I am only speaking for myself, not the officers, but I totally agree that the views of the membership need to be heard, and that the answer should NOT come from the officers without comment. Remember that any proposal coming up from the ranks or down from the "top" must be discussed, cussed, and eventually voted on by the membership. Keep the discussion going.....it all helps, and everyone needs to be heard, IMHO, even though everyone will not be happy no matter HOW this all turns out!

Gary B.
Vice Commodore (until elections)

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2004 : 21:06:49

Frank - of course you are! I went to have a great time - and did, thanks to Gary B. and his Fleet. (And the beer up there...wow!) The fact that I was on the winning TR C25 was just a big bonus...

Derek

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2004 : 21:42:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gloss
 Are you allowed to come to nationals if you really don't care if you win or not, or how you rate, but just wanna have some fun, drink beer, tell lies, and be a participant in the race, rather than a competitor?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

We have 12 25s at Cheney (1 tall rig) and 1 WK250. (15 30s and 16 22s) 3 of the 25s race regularly (I am the slowest boat on Cheney!)
[url="http://homepage.mac.com/fhopper/.Pictures/Photo%20Album%20Pictures/2004-07-18%2010.39.46%20-0700/July%2022%20020.jpg"]DFL Hopper[/url]
I am hoping there will be plenty of deck space next year, we just need to prod some of the non racers to join in.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 07/22/2004 22:17:32

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2004 : 21:54:12

I am on a road trip this weekend so I will not be able to discuss any ideas with our PRO (principal race officer), Regatta chairman, or PHRF handicapper. I will get their input on what they think would be the best number of fleets from a management standpoint. For what it is worth here at Cheney the STD rig 25 non spin class, sails with a 250 PHRF to try and help it be competitive. It doesn't help we get waxed anyway. The San Juan 21s (PHRF 260) and Cat 22s (PHRF 295) kill us scratch on wednesday nights. I am pretty sure the 05 champions will be visitors.

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
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Response Posted - 07/23/2004 : 02:08:43

Frank, I begged, pleaded, cajoled, encouraged, bribed and harrassed ALL comers to come to Nationals. When so many potentials seemed to be refraining, we instituted a FUN class so everyone would feel welcome.

Funny thing....only one boat entered that fleet! Wazzup with that? I wish I knew....it certainly could not have been the cost of the entry fee of $70, as I think everyone got his/her money's worth.

For 2004, we worked really hard at trying to match up experienced crews and skippers for boats that were owned by relative newbies and inexperienced folk. Actually, while only a few boats were realistically in contention for the SR National Championship, I know a number of others who came out to learn, improve, socialize and have a good time. I have heard from a number of them that they had a ball. Only one skipper I heard from told me later that he thought serious racing was too "stressful" for him, but he was one guy who turned down the idea of sailing with others with more experience, since they would be strangers and he was more interested in smooth comraderie on the boat.

I will be honest. I was, and continue to be, happy with the fact that we drew more boats than is usual for a Nationals, but, frankly, we came NO WHERE NEAR my personal goal, nor near the number in the area who COULD have come. I think lots of folks would have enjoyed it. I remain convinced that racing is the surest way to steepen the learning curve. Good racer=good skills=good sailor=good cruiser.

My advice: If in doubt, check it out.

Gary B.
Vice Commodore (until elections)
Fleet 94 Captain
s/v Encore! #685 SK/SR

Edited by - on

SJ
Navigator

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USA
198 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2004 : 08:11:43

There are many ways to rate the boats fairly, including sail size etc. J105's must use the class legal non overlapping headsails when they race OD. When they race PHRF, there ratings change due to the larger headsail. T10's typically race with a 135 and a rating of 132, when they break out the 15o the ratings change to 128. All one must do is declare ahead of time. What should happen is that we get as much info on results from our own National regatta and as much info from ALL the other racers out there and crunch some numbers. PHRF has alreday given the boat a "base" rating. As a OD class we can determine our own ratings based upon historical performance.

Edited by - on

nate
Navigator

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240 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2004 : 09:31:36

Gloss....you forgot "Pick-up sailing groupies."

Edited by - on

Terry Annis
1st Mate

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USA
35 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2004 : 10:48:25

Just for grins, the new National SR champ was using a borrowed dacron 150, 5-6 years
old in fairly good shape. I had a great time at the Regetta, the full sail beer at the end
of the day was wonderful, Thanks Full Sail and Gary, Oh guess what, this week the wind is
blowing, the bad side its 100 degrees.

Terry & Kathie "LEMATIKE" #789 SR

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2004 : 11:42:11

I need to ask this. So many people say that spinnaker boats and JAM boats have to have separate "fleets" within fleets. WHY??? The reality is that there is ONE permanent, traveling trophy for each class of TR,SR,250. Do we really need 6? Given the FACT that lately only 9-12 boat even show up for a National regatta, and that we are lucky to have 3 boats in the 250 and TR fleet, especially, why would we ever want to split it up more?

At this Nationals, the JAM boats were given the PHRF difference of 20 seconds per mile handicap. Granted, in this venue, on these days, with current and light air, it was not enough, but on non-moving water with decent air, my money would be on on a JAM boat with a great skipper/crew (and we had at least 3 or 4 in Portland who did a heck of a job).

Granted, PHRF is never totally "fair" and results are always dependent upon the conditions as to which boat gets the advantage with PHRF numbers, but I still do not understand why a JAM and spin need to be split up.

PHRF is there to "equalize" things somewhat, and if folks don't like it, they could always add to the inventory. That's what I am doing. The biggest lesson I learned in this Nationals is that, for the Columbia River with its long downwind runs against current, in order to be competitive, I must bite the bullet and get a sym chute. In other venues, it might not be so critical. I used to get my share of wins with the A-sym, but now that my buddies are using big chutes and poles, I see transoms way too often, even with a small handicap for a smaller chute, but that is due to the unique nature of our river where reaching is not common and runs are a necessity.

But when the conditions are right, I can still whip 'em now and then.....and the JAM boats can beat me....check the results of race 5 when we had the best wind of the regatta! The winner and 3 of the top 4 boats were JAM, and the other was an Asym. To me, that "proves" that in "most" conditions, these boats can be raced (spin and non-spin) VERY fairly. Please show me where my thinking is mis-guided....

In 2004, we allowed skippers to declare EACH day whether they were using a spinnaker or not, so folks could either take the handicap or not, depending upon how they faired the day before. I continue to resist penalizing a spinnaker sailor by saying he/she can't fly it at Nationals (what other Nationals does not allow spinnakers?), and I resist splitting the fleets down even more. What's a guy to do????

Gary B.
Vice Commodore
Fleet 94 Captain
s/v Encore! #685 SK/SR

Even with conditions that highly favored big chutes, the #3 boat had an Asym, the #4 and #6 boats were JAM, beating several big chutes. That is being competitive!

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/23/2004 : 12:02:37

Gary B. - I think that the handicaps that you came up with were very fair - it was the conditions that were agin you! I agree that a JAM boat with such a reasonable handicap can beat a chute and I certainly don't think that, in view of the paucity of TR's and 250's, we need to split fleets further. The Columbia River is probably a unique venue with its necessity for a long run against current - I thought we would NEVER get back up past that leeward mark

.
I hope that over this Summer fleets will report some numbers from more traditional venues.
Derek

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2004 : 12:17:19

Actually, Derek, we did not come up with those numbers; they are PHRF-NW numbers. I did not suggest we tamper with them since they are all "official". The exception was with the 250 class; there were no numbers, so, with Duane's advice, that is what we did.

As for getting around the leeward mark? We got there in one race just as the wind shut off. We were sailing about 1 knot and sitting absolutely STILL. About 4 boats got around it first and finished about 10 minutes ahead of us. We "parked", chute down and genoa up, just unside the 2 boat circle as others sailed up to us and "parked". We finally slid around.....(so afraid the current would push us downriver and into the mark!). Boats that were less than 1 or 2 boatlengths away (beside us) eventually rounded and finished about 3 minutes behind us, even though the finish was only about a quarter of a mile away. Unreal! Ugly!
Oh, that river! That day. The last few days....howling out there! Dang!

Gary B.
Vice Commodore
s/v Encore! #685 SK/SR

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 07/23/2004 : 12:31:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">To me, that "proves" that in "most" conditions, these boats can be raced (spin and non-spin) VERY fairly. Please show me where my thinking is mis-guided....<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Gary, I couldn't agree more. The best proof that spin and non-spin boats can race against each other fairly with appropriate handicaps is that they've been doing it in the C25/250 national regatta for almost 30 years. I've raced in the nationals 5 times, and spin and non-spin boats have always raced in the same fleet. Sometimes the non-spin boats could beat the spin boats scratch, and sometimes they could beat them on handicap. When the spinn boats were well-sailed, the non-spin boats couldn't beat them at all.

Except for one year, I never heard anyone complain that it was unfair for spin boats and non-spin boats to race together. One year, the members of the sponsoring fleet all raced with spinnakers, and they set up a long, mostly windward-leeward course that skewed it heavily in favor of spin boats. With that exception, sponsoring clubs have always been very conscientious about creating as fair a course as they could.

I agree that we should retain the same racing classifications that we have always had.

Edited by - on

Tony Partain
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 07/23/2004 : 13:32:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The Columbia River is probably a unique venue with its necessity for a long run against current<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The C250 TR was the perfect boat for this type of run. The C250 loves to go dead downwind. Plus the wind angle in a couple of races added to my advantage(don't ask because I won't tell you). There is no doubt the light winds and current played into my hands for this venue.

I too would have preferred stronger winds for a couple of reasons. 1. We could have obtained good data for future PHRF ratings. 2. I spent most of my time preparing for the race in stronger winds.

In the 250 class we need to take into consideration the other boats chose not to utilize the rules to their fullest extent. They elected to fly a smaller head sail than allowed. A 110 vs. a 135. I my observation they left a lot on the table with rig tune and carrying excess weight in the form of cruising gear. How will you quantify this for the future PHRF number? I haven't raced since 1998 so I don't know if the penalty that was assessed for my 150 and tall rig was fair or not, but we used the rules to their fullest. The other 250's had some what slower starts. The second place boat only had one start where they were on the line with us. So how do you take this into consideration to the Phrf numbers? I am not criticizing them but just pointing out the differences.

As far as the PHRF numbers between a 25 and 250, I am sure that the 250 has a advantage on light winds. Just due to the weight difference the 250 has a advantage. On the other hand the 25 should have a advantage in strong winds. If you change the rules every year without taking into consideration the local conditions you will be chasing your tail forever.

Edited by - Tony Partain on 07/23/2004 14:32:21

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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1420 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2004 : 16:22:52

Great discussion, all! Keep it up. The purpose of the officer staff e-mail discussion was to get them thinking and if there seemed to a sense of consensus take that to the membership for further discussion. The issues are complex, and several solutions seem possible. We want the solution that is best for the NA to all these questions.

And, as someone said, even after a fair discussion, some are not going to be happy with the decision that is proposed and enacted.

I'm tabulating results, kinda, because I initiated the officer staff discussion, and will add to that these points at the appropriate time.

Meanwhile, keep at, keep talking, lets hear from all of you.

BTW. Frank, come to Chaney and have a great time. Meet some folks, enjoy your sailing. I suspect crew will be available. Come and enjoy!

Edited by - on

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