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Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2004 : 21:48:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">In the 250 class we need to take into consideration the other boats chose not to utilize the rules to their fullest extent. They elected to fly a smaller headsail than allowed. A 110 vs. a 135.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I thought the other 2 C250's were water ballast boat? Before model year 2003 the WB was not able to fly a headsail bigger than a 110% due to the standing rigging.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> I my observation they left a lot on the table with rig tune and carrying excess weight in the form of cruising gear.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

At the 2003 nationals we didn't even bother taking the TV, DVD satellite, microwave, kid's toys or cooking gear off the boat we even had a full water tank. All the classes started at once we only got beat across the line by 1 TR/FK C25.

I’m not sure that I will ever go to another National Regatta.(I don't like the politics) I went last year to have fun and to say I did that once. (Plus it was close to where I grew up so we made a vacation out of it). I could care less about getting time from a C250TR with a 150%. If I can’t beat them in my boat then I guess I didn’t race good enough to win. If any fleet needs to be split it the C250 water ballasts and the wing keels. Look at the last 2 regattas the water ballasts didn’t even finish in the same time zone as the winning wing keels. But if we don’t get enough C250’s to show up I guess they must run in the same fleet.

I think we should have a C25 JAM fleet with both the TR and the SR in one fleet and in the other have C25 spin fleet with both the TR and the SR in that fleet. If it is necessary to handicap the TR’s then do it. This way at least all the spinnaker boats will race together.

Edited by - Bryan Beamer on 07/23/2004 21:54:09

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2004 : 22:02:49

So where and when are the next nationals?

Edited by - on

Tony Partain
1st Mate

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USA
93 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2004 : 23:16:15

Brian what type of winds did you experience in last years race?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">At the 2003 nationals we didn't even bother taking the TV, DVD satellite, microwave, kid's toys or cooking gear off the boat we even had a full water tank.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
But I'll bet you had the rig set for the conditions. Which one of those items is a worm drive?!

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Before model year 2003 the WB was not able to fly a headsail bigger than a 110% due to the standing rigging<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Check out the rules

Non-Spinnaker class: (4 sail limit)
1 Mainsail
3 Headsails (max 135%*)

*Boats that were originally built and supplied with jib sails larger than 135% will be allowed with appropriate handicap ratings.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I’m not sure that I will ever go to another National Regatta.(I don't like the politics)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Everybody loves to hate good politician's

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I could care less about getting time from a C250TR with a 150%.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I think that the satellite is the magenitic worm drive, you sound pretty confident!!

Edited by - Tony Partain on 07/23/2004 23:19:28

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2004 : 02:55:34

I should have started out my last post with a huge congratulations to Tony and crew for beating the pants off of everybody at the regatta. I sure love it when a C250 does well. It kinda makes all the people that think the C250 can't race or keep up with it’s sister boat eat their words.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Brian what type of winds did you experience in last years race? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This link will cover most of your questions about the 2003 Nationals

http://www.catalina25-250.org/racing/03nat.html

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">At the 2003 nationals we didn't even bother taking the TV, DVD satellite, microwave, kid's toys or cooking gear off the boat we even had a full water tank.

Which one of those items is a worm drive?! <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm not a racer. I only get to race at our lake 2 times a year so the boat is set up as a 2nd home and it also has wheel steering, a marine head with an 18 gal holding tank, a roller furling 135% head sail and a 15 hp outboard. This boat is definitely not set up for racing.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Before model year 2003 the WB was not able to fly a headsail bigger than a 110% due to the standing rigging
Check out the rules

Non-Spinnaker class: (4 sail limit)
1 Mainsail
3 Headsails (max 135%*)

*Boats that were originally built and supplied with jib sails larger than 135% will be allowed with appropriate handicap ratings. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I was just saying that it is unfair to say the water ballast boats elected to fly a smaller headsail than allowed, because if an older water ballast boat had a sail bigger than a 110% they would have to move the jib car to the rail so the sail would make it around the shrouds that attach to the boat outside the lifeline. The water ballast in last year’s regatta did this and they flew a 150%.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I could care less about getting time from a C250TR with a 150%.

I think that the satellite is the magenitic worm drive, you sound pretty confident!!

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No not really. I just think on an average wind day the tall rig just doesn't have that big of an advantage, possibly on a less than 5 knot day, but not totally sure about that either. In our fall regatta last year we had a drifter that had the regatta called after one race. The only boat that beat us scratch was a Hobie 16 and he only beat us by a little more than 5 minutes in a 1.5-hour race.

I guess it all depends on the wind. If a C250 is sailing against a C25 in winds 20+ the chances are the C25 will beat a C250. I pretty much figure an average wind day is between 8 to 12. In those winds I like the chances of my C250 against most any boat.

Edited by - Bryan Beamer on 07/24/2004 03:00:39

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5909 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2004 : 09:58:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I'm not a racer. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Don't let Bryan kid you. He might not race often nowadays, but I've know him since he was a little dock rat, and he's definitely a racer.

Edited by - on

Tony Partain
1st Mate

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USA
93 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2004 : 13:04:59

Can you say poker face?

Edited by - on

coach
Navigator

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USA
231 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2004 : 16:52:56

Race everyone at the same time. Same start times.

But break it down like this.

Cat 25
Cat 25 w/spin
Cat 25 Tall Rigs
250 w/spin
250

5 different types of boats, why not 5 different national champions? Nothing wrong with that. Trying to compare TR's to Spins does not make much sense to me.

Break up the classes and just go out and have fun.

I am planning on heading down with my Cat 25 tall rig next summer with Meinert. If it is going to turn into a race where everyone is all in one class and it comes down to ratings. I would lose quite a bit of interest in attending and taking part.

Just my .02 cents

Edited by - on

rclift
Navigator

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USA
152 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2004 : 19:34:04

Coach,

Why no spin fleet for the tall rigs and should there be a difference between assymetrical or full spinnakers?

Edited by - on

coach
Navigator

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USA
231 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2004 : 00:18:11

My mistake, I was in a hurry when I typed the post. Cat 25 Tall Rigs with Spinnakers.

Although there are really only two types of boats....25's and 250's. There are many classes made up from the two classes.

The more classes that are offered in the championships, the more people may get involved.

As I said in my earlier post, I am heading down to Lake Cheney next year. But if the classes are all put together as one. We will most likely lose interest in going.

One of the ideas I would like to see is not only the national championship every year, but each state hold their own State Championship each year. There are quite a few folks that can not make the long trips to the nationals and it would give them a chance to compete against other folks from around each state and the travel would be much less.

Then racers would have a chance to not only win a state championship, but a national championship as well. Just a chance to get more folks into racing.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2004 : 19:35:54

Hmmm... Tough choices. Catalina really didn't build for one-design racing--up to three keels and two rigs per generation, where the generations are very different hulls. Handicaps are tough when the C-250 clearly excells in light air and the C-25 has the advantage in heavier air and seas. It seems to me that people don't like National Championships to be decided on corrected times, but if you want to level the playing field, you probably need to do something.

From my perch (as rail meat), it looks like you might need "hybrid PHRF" approach, with trophies for C-25 TR, C-25 SR, C-250 TR, and C-250 SR so light air conditions (in particular) don't take out entire classes. Then, handicaps could be set up within those divisions to correct for keel. On the C-250, the WK could be handicapped for the assumption that it can carry a 135 to the WB's 110. On the C-25, the keel might be omitted as a factor--despite the debates here, the advantages have not been proven, except that the wing might be at a slight disadvantage to windward, as will be any boat built for shoal draft cruising.

I might also argue against no-spin handicaps or classes on the basis that each division allows spinnakers, and therefore the "serious" racers will have them. Nationals should not necessarily be set up so the casual sailers can correct out over the more serious racers based on sail inventories--that's for Thursday night club racing. If Nationals are meant to also maximize the fun for the less serious members, then set up a less serious competition just for them--but don't degrade the National Championship so much that the best sailors loose interest.

If some participants can't agree on a system that gives each legitimate configuration a chance for a title based on preparation and skill, then those participants should switch to a true one-design class such as J-xx, where the hull, rig, and sail inventories are fixed. C-25s and 250s are simply not one-design boats. When you choose a family cruiser, you shouldn't pretend you bought into a well-regulated racing class.

Just MHO.

Edited by - on

Tony Partain
1st Mate

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USA
93 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2004 : 00:26:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If some participants can't agree on a system that gives each legitimate configuration a chance for a title based on preparation and skill, then those participants should switch to a true one-design class such as J-xx<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

MR. Bristle you have put the nay sayers in their place. If they want one design they need to sell their boats and buy one.

Catalina has too many configurations and will not be one design until each type of boat has the numbers to make individual classes. Until then you are going to have to race PHRF. There isn't another choice. The race committee has done a fine job and has used PHRF numbers that are fair. If you do an internet search on PHRF numbers you will find that they are very similar all over the country. Judging by what I found the numbers are within .05% give or take. The racers that are serious about competing will do what ever the rules allow and call for to win the rest will go out and have a good time. Quit whining and start practicing for next year. The conditions will be different next year and the complaining will start over again.

BTW how many of the members that have responded to this discussion are going to the nationals next year or were at the nationals this year? If we had a turn out at the nationals like we have on this board we would be close to a one design fleet for every class.

Edited by - Tony Partain on 07/26/2004 01:00:53

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2004 : 00:48:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
BTW how many of the members that have responded to this discussion are going to the nationals next year? If we had a turn out at the nationals like we have on this board we could have a one-design fleet for every class.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

By my count there is only 14 different people to respond to this thread. That would be about an average turn out.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Catalina has too many configurations and will not be one design until each type of boat has the numbers to make individual classes. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The C250 tall rig was only made from 97-99. I don't think we will ever have enough C250TR to have it's on fleet, unless Catalina reintroduces the tall rig.

Edited by - on

barmstro
1st Mate

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34 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2004 : 03:13:47

I didn't think I was a racer untill I started thinking about these discussions on phrf or single class raceing and decided I must be a racer even though I don't thnk of myself that way. The Question I have to ask is "why do we race?" for me it is the thrill of the one on one competion. If you use phrf to correct time a boat can beat you across the line long before you, but you beat him on corrected time, where is the excelleration of victory. I mean if I have to wait for the race committee to tell me if I won the excitement of the race is gone. The satisfaction may be there but the joy of triumph has faded. I feel Jam boats should race jam boat and spinakers race spinakers etc. If that means 6 champions so be it. If needed a single champaion could be chosen based on corrected times but being 1st in your class at the marks and the finsh line is where the fun comes in.

Edited by - barmstro on 07/26/2004 03:19:45

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5909 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2004 : 07:31:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I feel Jam boats should race jam boat and spinakers race spinakers etc. If that means 6 champions so be it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">What that would most likely mean is that, frequently, the spinnaker champ for one or more of the classes would either be awarded to a boat that sailed without competition, or it wouldn't be awarded at all (because nobody raced in that class with a spinnaker).

JAM boats have competed against spinnaker boats for years. If the JAM boat can beat the spinnaker boat to the finish line, the racers know right away who won. They only have to wait for the computation of handicaps when the spinnaker beats the JAM across the line. At the nationals, the first days results are usually posted at the evening festivity. The second days results are announced at the awards ceremony. A little suspense as to the outcome adds to the excitement at the awards ceremony.

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2004 : 08:34:40

Frank Gross: next year's nationals are going to be on Lake Chaney, Wichita, Kansas. I'm not sure that the dates have been announced.

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2004 : 08:44:37

One of the realities of C25/250 racing is that we are not one fleet and if we consider more fleets we will be fragmenting what we have. This year we awarded three championship awards, and had we had c25 std rig-spinniker fleet we could have had four. We could not have split the 25 tall rig, nor the 250 (altho' had Tony raced in a 250 tall rig fleet of one - boy that would have been fun - I would sailed Steve and Charlotte's 250 wb to a first place in a two boat match race fleet

) because we would have had less than three boats.

As we discuss solutions and consider fragmentation of the fleets to allow for more level racing, which I believe is more fun that and kind of handicapping, we need to encourage more boats to participate. Bill Mienart trailed Longwind from Indiana to Portland for this year's nationals, and has committed three boats for Wichita next year. As a NA we need others who are committed to trtailing to either a championship regatta or to a rondevous (sp)

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2004 : 09:12:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Bryan Beamer
 [quote]
I think we should have a C25 JAM fleet with both the TR and the SR in one fleet and in the other have C25 spin fleet with both the TR and the SR in that fleet. If it is necessary to handicap the TR’s then do it. This way at least all the spinnaker boats will race together.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I could support that, it makes a lot of sense. More than a tr fleet and a std fleet.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2004 : 09:26:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by osmepneo
 Frank Gross: next year's nationals are going to be on Lake Chaney, Wichita, Kansas. I'm not sure that the dates have been announced.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
CHENEY CHENEY CHENEY

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2004 : 10:23:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Bryan Beamer

[quote]
I think we should have a C25 JAM fleet with both the TR and the SR in one fleet and in the other have C25 spin fleet with both the TR and the SR in that fleet. If it is necessary to handicap the TR’s then do it. This way at least all the spinnaker boats will race together.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I could support that, it makes a lot of sense. More than a tr fleet and a std fleet.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I disagree. If the tall rig JAM boats and standard rig JAM boats race separately from tall rig spinnaker boats and standard rig spinnaker boats, then you can no longer have a single tall rig champion and standard rig champion. You have to break the tall rigs and standard rigs into 4 separate classes (SR Spinn., TR Spinn, SR JAM, and TR JAM.)

In some years, only one boat might show up in either or both of the spinnaker classes wanting to fly a spinnaker, in which case, he wins a national championship by default. It would be embarrassing to win a national championship by default. When you tell someone you are the national champ in a certain class, the first question you'll be asked is, "How many boats did you race against?"

In other years, it may be that no spinnaker boats will show up in either or both of those classes, meaning there won't be a national champion in that class at all.

Bryan, think about the 2003 National Regatta at Lake Wawasee, for example. Only a superman with a super crew could fly a spinnaker effectively on those short courses with the extremely shifty winds that we had at that time. While those courses were a little shorter than usual, the fluky winds were not particularly unusual.

Many more things can go wrong with a spinnaker than can go wrong with a JAM. In light, fluky winds, it's hard to keep a spinnaker drawing, but a poled-out genoa is spread out to the wind and drawing all the time. In more robust winds, it becomes difficult to control a spinnaker. Spinnaker boats broach, or they take off in the wrong direction on a gust, or the spinnakers wrap themselves around the rigging, either while going up or while coming down. While the spinnaker boats are fighting for control, the boat with a poled-out genoa is driving nearly as fast, and is going the direction she wants to go. When she rounds the next mark, it's a snap to take down the pole and trim for the next course. On a course that isn't skewed to favor spinnaker boats, C25s with JAM can usually race very competitively against C25s with spinnakers, especially when they are equalized with appropriate handicap ratings.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 07/26/2004 10:28:00

Tony Partain
1st Mate

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USA
93 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2004 : 10:41:15

Can anyone tell me the handicap difference between a 110 and a 135 on a 250?

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3324 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2004 : 11:12:33

Tony - in our Cruising Fleet on the lake we allow a 6 sec differential. In Non-Spin there is no allowance...
Incidentally, the C22's have an interesting method with JAM's and spin boats. The Spin boats race in the mornings in their own fleet and in the afternoons they have a Gold Fleet (made up of some boats which ran chutes in the mornings and some who didn't race then) and a Silver Fleet for those less experienced racers who have not trophied at either a Regionals or a Nationals). Both fleets run JAM.
Thus they have 3 Champions. (The Mark II version can't enter...)
Derek

Edited by - on

Tony Partain
1st Mate

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USA
93 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2004 : 11:36:50

[quote]Before model year 2003 the WB was not able to fly a headsail bigger than a 110% due to the standing rigging[quote]

Non-Spinnaker class: (4 sail limit)
1 Mainsail
3 Headsails (max 135%*)

*Boats that were originally built and supplied with jib sails larger than 135% will be allowed with appropriate handicap ratings.

If the earlier model years can't fly a 135 why isn't there a handicap for this configuration? Derek's last post show that the 22's are at six seconds per mile with this differential. What should the difference be on a 250?

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2004 : 11:53:57

For the National Association Championships we can decide whatever we want. We can adjust the rules, by agreement of the members, or we may find that the rules already allow what we decide to do. For example, we may decide that stick with the three current classes, and strengthen the handicapping for the maximum head sail that the skipper declares (s)he will uses. We could decide to decide to keep three classes and strive for one design racing, with the attitude that the class rules allow a particular maximum head sail, and that the boat skippers decide whether to use that or not. We could de3cide that we will create different classes 25 std rig spin, 25 std rig JAM, and allow that to happen to 25 tall rig and 250 when there are sufficient boats to form additional classes.

The decisions that surround this issue are just one of the decisions that face the NA. We also have to deal with the question of poling an Assym Spin to weather, like a JAM boat does with her Jenny. or is that illegal.

As an officer of the NA It is my desire that we discuss these issues so that the wisdom of the group can prevail. That's why I glad to see this discussion going on, as well as the officer/staff e-mail discussion. It is good for us to discuss these questions, calmly, for the good of the organization.

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2004 : 11:58:31

Frank H.

Cheney. ok!

In seminary I discovered that I couldn't hear the difference between "a's" and "e's" and almost always put the wrong one down as I wrote papaers. It became a seminary joke that I was testing the professors to see how carefully they read the papers. (This joke was perpatrated by me.

)

I'm sorry and will try to get it rite the next time!

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2004 : 14:52:13

Will the best babes rule be in effect?

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