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dillond
Deckhand

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USA
1 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2004 : 19:48:40

From the deck of ISC25, Doug Dillon and crew. First of all many thanks to Gary B. for inviting us to participate and putting together a great week of sailing, to Bill and Gary W. for excellent committee boat work, to all of you that traveled long distances and to all that participated with acknowledgement to Plan B and Epiphany for the great water cannon battle. Tony P. asked about our prepartation and starts. After being beaten up on by Terry "Lematike" and Gary "Encore" much of the spring and and summer season we had to do something different to our boat to just stay close. We couldn't do much about the sails as this is a charter/rental boat, but we could clean the bottom which we did the Monday before the regatta. We had pretty good starts except for race #5, usually one of the first three boats across the start. We tried to use the ralativity of the wind to current to our advantage, had good spinnnaker sets except race #4 when our spin halyard was frozen and had to use the jib halyard made for slow sail changes. We made some good decisions keeping in clear air and out of or in the current as needed. In the end, a little skill a little luck, loads of fun, racing at it's finest.

Edited by - on

Tony Partain
1st Mate

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USA
93 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2004 : 11:03:14

Doug Congratulations on your victory!!! From what I could see you did a fine job of sailing. I still think that dirty bottom made you sail better.!!

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2004 : 22:15:55

D2, While it was the spinnaker work and good sailing that won it for you, the borrowed 150 from Nate did not hurt.

To others: For what it is worth, Doug blew out his 150 on Thursday before the regatta. By the time I heard about it on Friday and called to offer him one, another Fleet 94 fleetmate already had him covered. That is why I love this fleet!

Couldn't have hurt you, Man!

Congrats,

Gary B.
Fleet 94 Captain

Doing SYSC0 's One Design Regatta in two weeks? I think we can muster a fleet!

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2004 : 10:15:59

That's what fleet do for one another!

Y'awl have a good group out in Portland, and in Fleet 94

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2004 : 16:13:02

this topic is wandering

I sent this the other day to the officers and staff and received zero responses so I will post it here.

I just got off the phone with next year's PRO and he and I are in agreement, for Cheney Lake we would rather see two 25 fleets, a 25 non spin fleet with handicaps for the rig and a 25 spin fleet with handicaps for the rig. I would be ok with adding the 250s to those two fleets, relying on handicaps to make it a fair race, other wise we can continue to simply "do something" with the 250s.* At our lake we have always raced with spinnaker fleets and non spinnaker fleets. You are then at least doing the same drills as your competitors. As for the asymmetricals, leave them home, if you bring them you will race in the spin fleet. We would also entertain the organization providing Portsmouth numbers rather than PHRF#. (I adamantly believe the organization should provide the numbers we race to.) Our wind can be very high, as with anywhere our wind can also take a day off. Handicapping with wind ranges is a good idea. Handicapping time on time is also a good idea.

*I would really like to see the 250s show up in force, I do not know that the details of the race rules really make a difference. They are the most trailerable of our members and do not seem to want to come. Maybe the ease of trailering in the midwest will help. It will be a very easy pull to Wichita. I want to know how those boats sail!

#[url="http://www.ussailing.org/portsmouth/"]portsmouth home[/url]

interesting
[url="http://www.ussailing.org/portsmouth/table_v.htm"]PHRF<>Portsmouth[/url]

OFFSHORE CLASSES
USSA
DPN
WIND HC FOR BEAUFORT RANGE
Beaufort calculator
***************************
CODE DefaultPN 0-1 2-3 4 5-9

Catalina 25 (FK/SK/WK) 93.6 95.2 93.9 93.3 92.6

Catalina 25 (FK/SK,TM) 90.3 92.2 90.7 89.7 89.2

Catalina 25 (WK,T.Mast) 95.1 [97.3] 95.4 93.0

Catalina 250 95.7 (95.0)

It appears the tall rig wing is the slowest boat except at 12-19 mph. What I see here also make sense to me, the tall rigs are faster; period. You may not know how to sail one but if you do there is nothing that beats more sail area on the same boat.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2004 : 19:06:46

Frank, the national association has three trophies for three racing fleets. The three fleets are C25 Standard Rig, C25 Tall Rig, and C250. There are no separate trophies for spinnaker boats, and never have been. If you are going to have spinnaker boats race separately from other Tall Rigs and Standard Rigs, how are you going to determine which of them will win the existing trophies?

If you are suggesting that the national association should discontinue using the trophies and racing classes that have been used for 20 years (i.e., the trophies that are inscribed with the complete history of C25 and C250 racing), then I strenuously object to that suggestion. That would be roughly akin to discontinuing the use of the Indianapolis 500 Trophy, with all its history, and dividing the Indianapolis 500 into two 250 mile races, with supercharged engines in one race and normally aspirated engines in the other. The Indianapolis 500 would no longer exist. You would have two Indianapolis 250s.

Some aspects of the National Regatta are changeable, so long as the overall result is fair. The change that you are suggesting might have been reasonable in the very earliest years of the national regatta, but the history of the event is now too deeply engrained in the existing classes and trophies. It is far too late to break that chain now.

When you see a person's name on the existing Catalina 25 Standard Rig National Championship trophy, that means he was the champion of all Catalina 25s in that year. It means he beat all Standard Rigs, whether they were fin keels, swing keels and wing keels or spinnaker boats.

If you change the structure so that all JAM boats race against each other, and all Spinnaker boats race against each other, that would be different, but I don't see how it would be better than the existing structure. Under your proposal, there would be a JAM champion, who would have to beat all TR and SR JAM boats. The Spinnaker champion would have to beat all TR and SR Spinnaker boats. That would be different, but I don't see how it would be better than the existing structure.

If you and your PRO can decide, this year, to alter the most fundamental structure of the National Regatta, then what is to prevent next year's organizers from changing the way you structured it to a completely different structure, if they think the wind is blowing a different direction? In the national regatta, C25 Standard Rigs have always raced against C25 Standard Rigs, C25 Tall Rigs have always raced against C25 Tall Rigs, and C250s have always raced against C250s. What rationale justifies the discarding of 20 years of history and tradition. Perhaps you believe it is more logical for TR JAM boats to race against SR JAM boats, and for TR Spinnaker boats to race against SR Spinnaker boats, with TRs and SRs equalized with appropriate handicaps. How is that any more logical than having SRs with JAM racing against SRs with Spinnakers, with the JAM boats and Spinnaker boats equalized with appropriate handicaps? Both are equally workable, but your proposal lacks a compelling rationale. The existing structure should continue to be used unless there is a rationale that supports your proposal that is so compelling as to justify the discarding of 20 years of history and tradition. I see no such compelling rationale.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2004 : 19:41:49

Moved from 25 forum

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gary B.
 IF we are going to use handicaps to 'equalize" things, it seems to me that we need to agree on numbers and rules that will be consistent and the same from year to year and not changed for each venue each year. I think that is why we had some controversy this year in Portland, although it was the Association that agreed to what we did, not just our Fleet's call.

While Frank has some ideas about what he would like to see, I think it is really the Association that needs to address rule changes and racing rules, period. There is just too much ambiguity in our class rules now.....no addressing of asyms, poles, etc. We need to sort out the issues and agree upon what we would like to see....not change the system each year. IMHO, it would prevent much misunderstanding, etc.....

Another thing: IF you have a handicapping system that is "fair"....then why all the talk about separate fleets for spins and non-spins? I just don't get it, especially when the numbers of boats participating is so small most years.....PLEASE explain to me....and Steve Milby, I think, just WHY there must be so many distinct classes? I DO agree that 250s and 25s are SO different in hulls, let alone rigs and keels, that they should race as a separate fleet. (caps for emphasis, not anger!)

Gary B.
Vice Commodore
Fleet 94 Captain
s/v Encore! #685 SK/SR
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Gary, if you don't mind I am moving this to the other thread.

As I inferred when I expressed my insistence that the Association provide the numbers we race too, I too agree it is not up to the venue. As a new member of only one year it is all new to me. Also as a new member I have no vested interest in the existing rules, I did not contribute to them as they were developed. Therefore as a clean slate of sorts I feel that I see some strangeness in the rules.

The first strangeness is the existence of a tall rig fleet. The second is the idea of handicapping spinnaker boats against non spinnaker boats. It seems far more natural to me to have a racing fleet trophy (spinnaker fleet) and a cruising fleet trophy (non spinnaker) It divides the boats into a far more realistic grouping. If some people are concerned about being non competitive they certainly should be if they are racing against spinnaker equipped boats! A spinnaker equipped boat must have a crew who has sailed on the boat to be effective, so those are the only boats and crews who will declare themselves as spinnaker boats. Well, when I show up as a singled hander in my slow boat there is no amount of handicap that will make it fair. If however the spinnaker boats all race against each other, the level of boat preparation, crew skill, and experience will be far more level. As for the non spinnaker fleet, well there may be a sandbagger or two in the group but most likely it will be we people who race because it is fun and not because we expect to win.

As for which system to use; well what ever system addresses the most idiosyncrasies of our boats seems to be the most fair. From what I see that is portsmouth because it has wind ranges that help level the std and tall rig boats.

The only thing that I see as up to the hosting venue is the race schedule. So I hope this gets sorted out. Maybe the Officer elections should be built around some of these questions.

P.S. Steve, if tradition is what we want then so be it. Don't confuse my willingness to take subjects seriously and discuss them, as me being intransigent in my views. Far from it, I am merely being an advocate. My greatest concern is that people come to Wichita and leave glad they came. We can all play Jack LaLane and tow them with our teeth for all I care. I do think that if issues are to be discussed then they should be looked at in the light of day and the way the fleets have been organized "don't seem to be no way to run a railroad"! If tradition justifies the fleets continuing then OK. It just does not seem that it will provide the best competition. The handicap system is up to the association as well. The fleet issues and handicap issues are far more significant that the asymmetrical chute issue which seems to have peoples panties in a bunch. But if that is what the association should address rather than the other issues then that is what will happen.

The Women's North American Sunfish Nationals is this weekend at the club so I am out'a here.

Edited by - on

frogger
Navigator

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USA
184 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2004 : 20:08:28

I agree with Steve.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2004 : 21:05:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Steve, if tradition is what we want then so be it…If tradition justifies the fleets continuing then OK. It just does not seem that it will provide the best competition.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I’m not suggesting that we should continue using the same racing fleets that we have used for over 20 years solely because of tradition. I’m saying that we have, in fact, used those same fleets for over 20 years. I’ve raced in the national regatta five times, and the existing racing fleets have provided great competition. I’ve won against some outstanding spinnaker sailors, and I lost to an outstanding JAM sailor. JAM sailors and Spinnaker sailors alike have generally found the racing classes to be reasonably fair. I’m saying that anyone who proposes to change them ought to have a heavy burden of showing that his proposal is so much better, and so compelling, that it justifies doing away with over 20 years of tradition. If you can’t show an alternative that meets that burden, then I think the exiting fleets should remain as they are. Why should we change the existing system to something that is different, but not clearly better?

People who have organized a past national regatta, like Gary, can be immensely helpful to you in organizing yours, because they’ve already been through the maze of confusion that you are about to enter. It sounds like you have the makings of a great regatta. A lot of people are already talking about attending, and you have a year to work on others. If you try to do it all yourself, you’ll make yourself crazy.

Let those who have been through it before help you with the essential structure of the regatta itself, and then put your own signature on the event in promoting the event, planning the meals, social and other events, and the awards presentation.

Edited by - on

Tony Partain
1st Mate

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USA
93 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2004 : 22:46:24

Frank if you are looking for a low turn out at the next event, keep pushing for your proposal. Listen to the people that have put on the events in the past. A little change is good, a lot of change is bad. I agree with Steve.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2004 : 17:50:10

I thought this email and the first post of this thread meant that we should discuss the topics listed and the natural tangents they would elicit. I answered these questions with suggestions that I believe would improve and strengthen our association because I was asked to. I am thrilled to have the nationals at Lake Cheney next year and as I have stated before, the association will determine the rules of the regatta and we will determine the schedule.

Tony, once you cross the Rockies it is all down hill, see you next year.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> The questions:

1. How do we treat an Asym spinniker? Is it a head sail, subject to rules of a Genoa or is it a spinniker, subject to the rules of a spinniker or is it a special bread of sail for which special rules are required? At Nationals we said it was a spinniker, and could pole out with a spinniker pole (not a whisker pole) on the opposite side of the boom.

2. Are we one-design or not? If we are not one design, even within the three classes, then how do we handle handicapping when we have boats that have boats flying 110, 135 and 155 jibs and some are flying asym spinnikers, some flying spinnikers and others flying just their jibs.

3. When should we have a spinniker fleet? When we have three boats that want to fly spinnikers and 9 boats that don't? Are ready to have a forth "fleet" a spinniker fleet for the 25's in addition to the std rig and tall rig fleets? What about fleets for various keel configurations?

Please carry on the discussion via e-mail, replying to all participants. That way we are included in the discussion,

Thanks,

Don Peet, National Association Secretary<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

coach
Navigator

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USA
231 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2004 : 01:12:15

I have to say that I believe that the classes should remain the same. 25 standard, 25 tall rig and 250's. The trophies have been around for 20 years and should be around for 50 more.

We have three trophies that are used. Beautiful trophies I may add. But why not just add one more trophy to the mix and start the tradition of awarding a trophy to the 25 spin class?(just a thought)

That would give us these classes:

25 standard
25 tall rig
250's

and the new class

25 spin

I think if major league baseball and the NFL and the NBA can add more teams and divide the divions up, we can add another class to the championships.

4 classes...4 different national champions for 4 different kinds of boats.

I can safely say that if they end up going to just two classes and the tall rigs are not racing against tall rigs...my tall rig will not be making the trip to Witchita. We are looking forward to coming down, but would make other plans if we were not racing for a championship in the tall rig class.

Just my .02 cents

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2004 : 09:51:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">why not just add one more trophy to the mix and start the tradition of awarding a trophy to the 25 spin class?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Commonly only about 9-13 boats attend the national regatta. In 2003, for example, 4 C25 standard rigs, 3 C25 tall rigs, and 3 C250s raced. If you add a C25 spinnaker class, it will draw boats out of both the standard rig and tall rig classes. If only one person wanted to race with a spinnaker, you could end up with one spinnaker boat, racing all by himself to get the spinnaker trophy. Or, if spinnakers were popular, you could have four spinnaker boats, 3 standard rig JAMs and one tall rig JAM competing all by himself.

If we were racing 17 ft. dinghies, we would probably have dozens of entrants coming from all over the US to race. But it's very difficult to persuade people to bring their C25s and C250s to the national regatta.

This problem isn't unique to Catalinas. A new seven boat J24 fleet has been formed at my lake, and this year they held an invitational regatta, inviting other J24 fleets from all around the area to come race with us. No outside boats showed up. Not one.

If we subdivide our classes even further than the three existing classes, it will become even more difficult to get enough boats in each class to have a meaningful competition.

When spinnaker boats can be handicapped so that they can race fairly against JAM boats, what useful purpose would be served by racing them in a separate class?

Edited by - on

coach
Navigator

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USA
231 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2004 : 11:07:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">why not just add one more trophy to the mix and start the tradition of awarding a trophy to the 25 spin class?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Commonly only about 9-13 boats attend the national regatta. In 2003, for example, 4 C25 standard rigs, 3 C25 tall rigs, and 3 C250s raced. If you add a C25 spinnaker class, it will draw boats out of both the standard rig and tall rig classes. If only one person wanted to race with a spinnaker, you could end up with one spinnaker boat, racing all by himself to get the spinnaker trophy. Or, if spinnakers were popular, you could have four spinnaker boats, 3 standard rig JAMs and one tall rig JAM competing all by himself.

If we were racing 17 ft. dinghies, we would probably have dozens of entrants coming from all over the US to race. But it's very difficult to persuade people to bring their C25s and C250s to the national regatta.

This problem isn't unique to Catalinas. A new seven boat J24 fleet has been formed at my lake, and this year they held an invitational regatta, inviting other J24 fleets from all around the area to come race with us. No outside boats showed up. Not one.

If we subdivide our classes even further than the three existing classes, it will become even more difficult to get enough boats in each class to have a meaningful competition.

When spinnaker boats can be handicapped so that they can race fairly against JAM boats, what useful purpose would be served by racing them in a separate class?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Good enough reasoning for me!

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2004 : 12:23:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 [quote]

If we were racing 17 ft. dinghies, we would probably have dozens of entrants coming from all over the US to race. But it's very difficult to persuade people to bring their C25s and C250s to the national regatta.

This problem isn't unique to Catalinas. A new seven boat J24 fleet has been formed at my lake, and this year they held an invitational regatta, inviting other J24 fleets from all around the area to come race with us. No outside boats showed up. Not one.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

We had 6 J-24s travel to Wichita several weeks ago for our J-24 circuit regatta, I was disappointed. We only had a total of 18 Sunfish this last weekend for the Women's North American Nationals, I was very disappointed; that winner qualifies for the World's! Lake Cheney is a very easy tow, where ever someone is coming from will be the hardest part of the tow.
As Steve says, the 25 is a serious vessel to tow somewhere. Our '05 regatta is built around the Fourth of July, people will be welcome to show up over the Fourth weekend and sail in our 4th regatta, they will then also sail in the Wed night beer race and then the Nationals the following weekend. That will be 2 regattas and a beer race in 10 days and only missing 4 days of work. We hope that will entice people to come and stay long.

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2004 : 13:24:31

As tickled as I was to have 11 boats of our 22 entrants travel to Portland, OR by trailer, I continue to regret that at least 3 25s and at least 2 250s sat in Tomahawk marina (headquarters) and did not participate. One, I know, had a serious work conflict, but there were at least 5 more at a nearby marina that I could not encourage enough to play. At least one of those was the "masked man" I saw out one day single handing in a great breeze, screaming upriver. He was certainly no "new-bie". IF I could have reached them all, we could have had in excess of 30 boats. Plus, there are NUMEROUS others within 100 miles or so that I could not get to come.

Frank, I hope you have better luck than I in getting the locals out, as they will likely be the core of the National fleet. Good luck. And start now promoting and encouraging participation. Anything you can do to find experienced help for the "rookie" or non-racer skipper will pay big dividends....

Gary B.
s/v Encore! #685 SK/SR

BTW: The profits from the 2004 Regatta are at least partially into a "Kansas or Bust" fund, so hopefully someone from out here will attend to defend a championship or two. However, it's a bit far for my '78 Ford 250 at 8 MPG. Anybody have a big diesel for rent/loan?

Edited by - Gary B. on 08/03/2004 13:51:20

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2004 : 14:05:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gary B.
 BTW: The profits from the 2004 Regatta are at least partially into a "Kansas or Bust" fund, so hopefully someone from out here will attend to defend a championship or two. However, it's a bit far for my '78 Ford 250 at 8 MPG. Anybody have a big diesel for rent/loan?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Gary, at $2 and 8 miles per gallon you'd better start holding fundraising events now, because Wichita is slightly more than 400 miles from Portland.

Profit, indeed.

Edited by - on

rclift
Navigator

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USA
152 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2004 : 14:36:26

Having looked over the present rules I'm making a stab at posting the rules I'd like to see changed or decided upon. In most cases it is more important that a decision be made one way or another just to promote fairness and reduce the pressure to create more fleets.

From my point of view I would like the national board to make decisions regarding the following rules:
1. Are we going PHRF/equivalent or one design? If one design then other rules need to be modified to create a fleet that is more consistent. Spinnaker yes or know?, max sail size for 250, poling of asym.
If PHRF then greater flexibility can be given to sail configurations, head sail size, drifters, asymmetricals, travelers all with appropriate penalty to level the playing field.

2. Sails: If one design then I recommend a decision one way or another between spinnaker or jib and main. No separate classes

Sails allowed: Spinnaker class: (6 sail limit) 1 Mainsail 3 Headsails (max 155%) 2 Spinnakers
Non-Spinnaker class: (4 sail limit) 1 Mainsail 3 Headsails (max 155%)

Decision to be made: Spinnaker or Jam? Reduces the need to create more fleets.

RATINGS
3. All boats shall be rated according to the current area PHRF rating of the host fleet as available to them. Fixed, retractable, and winged keel boats with tall and standard rigs will be rated accordingly..
Rating adjustments will be allowed as follows: Inboard engines, fixed prop +.1; and inboard engines, folding prop +.05. No adjustments will be made for headsails smaller than 155%.

Decision: If we are going by one design rules it seems silly to have a rating for each fleet or distinguish between inboard or outboard configurations. Likewise, if we are going to rate each boat according to a phrf then this section needs to be expanded to allow greater flexibility with appropriate penalty..

HELMSMAN
5. The helmsman of the Catalina 25 shall be the skipper unless emergency or necessity requires that he give up the helm for a short period of time.

I would like to see this changed or removed. The skipper should be the one in charge and have the decision over who drives the boat. .

REVISION OF CLASS RULES
6. Ballots will be made available at the time of publication and voting will close by the date printed on the ballot. Results are to be published in the first issue of Mainsheet Magazine following the balloting.

For the sake of simplicity I would rather see the board of directors make the decision about class rules and notify the membership rather then a clumsy balloting procedure..

C250
Due to design differences and production options, all C250 boats will race with handicap ratings according to Section F. Ratings

E. SAILS

7. Sails allowed:
Spinnaker class: (6 sail limit) 1 Mainsail 3 Headsails (max 135%) 2 Spinnakers
Non-Spinnaker class: (4 sail limit) 1 Mainsail 3 Headsails (max 135%*)

Spinnaker sails are authorized and may be used in the National Championship Regatta and all sanctioned Regattas as a separate spinnaker class. Only two measured spinnakers may be used in the same regatta.

Decision to be made: Allow or disallow spinnakers
.

8. Windows may not have an area greater than 3 square feet (including telltale windows), in any one sail, nor may be closer than 6 inches to any edge.

Decision to be made: Keep in rules or remove

9. *Boats that were originally built and supplied with jib sails larger than 135% will be allowed with appropriate handicap ratings. In any one regatta the same sails must be used to fill the requirements of this section, unless there are extenuating circumstances, in which case the measuring official may waive this requirement.
My proposal would be to do away with this limitation and leave it up to the skipper to stay within the maximum rule without regard to how the boat was supplied by the manufacturer. 

10. One final point: If it is good enough for the C250 tall rig and standard rig to compete against each other with appropriate handicap why isn’t it ok for the C25 tall rig and standard rig to compete against each other. Perhaps it is time to add an additional fleet, such as the C250 tall rig or remove one of the fleets from the c25.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2004 : 19:03:54

Ray - I agree with most of your reasoning. I think that the reason we have a TR and a SR 25 fleet is because of the numbers. There always seems to be enough SR's racing and a paucity of TR's, but we have 2 trophies!
Personally I have no problem with the JAM's racing against the Spins (with appropriate handicap, of course) but I do think that we need to maintain the separation of the two rigs.
Derek
(on vacation in Colorado Springs)

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2004 : 21:41:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 Derek (on vacation in Colorado Springs)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And you didn't even call, e-mail or stop by!

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 08/03/2004 : 23:08:17

Jeepers Bryan - I only got here at 4 pm. today!!

You could call me at 719-598-3425...
Derek

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5909 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2004 : 10:30:52

Ray,

In recent email discussions among the officers, and others, they discussed whether the C25 is a one-design boat. The following comments were made by Bill Holcomb:

“We certainly are not a one-design fleet. There are just too many variables between keels, rigs, rudders, interiors, et al to have a one-design designation. That is why the rules are “Design Class” - - specifically leaving off the “one-design” designation.”

Scott Hefty said:

“The Catalina 25 is not a one design fleet. If it was a one design then there would be no need to have paragraph F, RATINGS, in the Catalina 25 Design Racing Rules. Also, there is no reference to “one design” in the Catalina 25 Design Racing Rules.”

I agree with them.

The following are my comments in response to your discussion of the following provisions:

Helmsman: The skipper of a boat is, by definition, the person in command of the boat. This rule simply requires that the skipper be the helmsman, except in brief periods of emergency or necessity. I suspect the reason underlying this rule is so we can easily ascertain who was in command and therefore responsible in the event of a collision. By this rule, the person whose hand is at the helm is ordinarily the skipper, unless he was on the john or attending to an emergency. The owner is the one who decides who will be in command of the boat. This rule simply requires that the skipper take the helm. I see no reason to change this provision.

Revision of Class Rules: Why would you want to make it easy to change the class rules? It should be extremely difficult, as it is with the US Constitution. Every year, people who don’t understand the rules or their underlying purposes, propose changes that don’t make sense. If only five or six people have to agree on a proposed change, it’s entirely possible that not one of them will understand the issues, and a silly change might get adopted. If the question is open to discussion and vote among the entire membership, it’s likely that two or three will understand the issues and guide the others to a reasonable conclusion. I see no reason to change this provision.

I drafted the following proposal to equalize all the different C250 sail configurations. Some boats can carry no larger than a 110% jib, so the 110% jib is rated at scratch. Progressively larger handicaps are assessed for jibs larger than 110%. I think this would equalize all the different sail configurations, but would appreciate all comments.

E. SAILS [C250]

7. Sails allowed:
(6 sail limit) 1 Mainsail, 3 Headsails*, 2 Spinnakers

*Jib sails larger than 110% will be allowed with appropriate handicap ratings. In any one regatta the same sails must be used to fill the requirements of this section, unless there are extenuating circumstances, in which case the measuring official may waive this requirement.

a. Spinnaker sails are authorized and may be used in the National Championship Regatta and all sanctioned Regattas, with appropriate handicap ratings. Only two measured spinnakers may be used in the same regatta. Any boat electing to use a spinnaker shall declare such intent to the race committee prior to the warning signal for each race, and the spinnaker handicap shall be assessed for that race, whether it is actually used or not.

8. Windows may not have an area greater than 3 square feet (including telltale windows), in any one sail, nor may be closer than 6 inches to any edge. I think that, before we consider a change to this provision, we should try to ascertain the underlying reason for it. The original author might have had a purpose for it that we do not perceive. If there is no sound reason to justify it, I have no problem with changing it.

You also asked the following question:

"10. One final point: If it is good enough for the C250 tall rig and standard rig to compete against each other with appropriate handicap why isn’t it ok for the C25 tall rig and standard rig to compete against each other. Perhaps it is time to add an additional fleet, such as the C250 tall rig or remove one of the fleets from the c25."

My response is: Why do the rules for C25s and C250s have to be symmetrical? Why can’t the rules allow C-25 TR and SR boats race in separate classes, and require C250 TR and SR boats to race in one class? There are perfectly sound, logical reasons to do it that way. Many more TR and SR C25s have been built than C250s. Usually there are enough of both designs at a regatta to have at least 3 of them race in each class. By way of contrast, not many TR C250s were ever built, and no more will ever be built. It is highly unlikely that 3, or even 2 tall rig C250s will ever appear at a national regatta. Thus, if TR C250s race in a separate class, in most years the national champion will be the only one that shows up. That is a very unsatisfying way to win a national championship. With appropriate handicaps, TR and SR C250s can compete fairly against each other, and they’ll enjoy it more if they have someone to compete against.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 08/04/2004 10:39:17

Gary B.
Admiral

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969 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2004 : 11:38:17

Steve: I like your logic. Officer nomination? How would you feel about that?

"J.B.: Posted - 08/03/2004 : 14:05:25
------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Gary B.
BTW: The profits from the 2004 Regatta are at least partially into a "Kansas or Bust" fund, so hopefully someone from out here will attend to defend a championship or two. However, it's a bit far for my '78 Ford 250 at 8 MPG. Anybody have a big diesel for rent/loan?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gary, at $2 and 8 miles per gallon you'd better start holding fundraising events now, because Wichita is slightly more than 400 miles from Portland. Profit, indeed. "

J.B., That sounds really sarcastic to me....

With all due respect, J.B., you have not seen the final accounting of the Nationals. While "most" of the entries went to Clif, not all did. Plus, we got $600 in sponsorships and over $500 selling shirts and raffle tickets that never went through the Association books. I have a date with Clif to finalize the budget information this weekend, at which point I will make public exactly what came in, what went out, to whom, etc. But we are in FAR better shape than you seem to think.

If I did something wrong in handling money locally, so be it, but it was very cumbersome to have it all in the National treasury and wait for checks, when so many things needed to be done quickly or at the last minute, or when my fleet did things and brought me the receipts. I usually repaid them personally and submitted requests for reimbursement to the Association. Near the end, we had deposits for kegs, etc. that I handled on my own. We bought ice, cups, muffins, etc. and a million things that never went through the proper channels, I guess, but reality dictated what I did and I will be completely accountable for every penny.

Trust me: there will be a final accounting soon and I think you will be surprised. We will end up with a nice balance that will get us easily to Kansas.......and part way back.....

Frankly, IMHO, there may need to be another method set up for dealing with Nationals expenses, income, etc. unless someone is FAR more organized than I. I held bills for some time before reimbursement arrived sometimes. No one's fault.....it is just the nature of coast to coast snail mail, busy schedules, etc.

Gary B.
Commodore of Vice

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Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2004 : 11:54:55

It was totally meant as a joke, mate!

Personally, I think you did a bang up job, and I know what difficulties the cross country financial transfers presented for you. The objective of the Nationals is to promote the Association and to provide an opportunity for our supporting members to garner a memorable experience, not to produce a profit. If you did, and I've been convinced all along that you did, produce a profit of any amount whatsoever, then all the better for the Association.

I apologize if I'd not adequately communicated these opinions previously.

Warmest regards,

JB

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2004 : 12:05:23

It just occurred to me that, if jib sizes are optional and have different
handicaps, then the racer has to declare the jib size before each race, if he
wants to use a sail larger than 110%, so the race committee will know how to
handicap the boat for each race. I have made the following revision, which
requires that the size of jib sails be declared. It is a little extra
"record keeping" that has to be done by the race committee, but it
shouldn't be a significant burden, and I don't see any other way of equalizing
the different sail configurations.

In short, C250s will have to declare (1) jib size (if over 110%), and (2)
spinnaker (if they choose to use one).

E. SAILS [C250]

7. Sails allowed: (6 sail limit) 1 Mainsail, 3 Headsails*, 2 Spinnakers

*Jib sails larger than 110% will be allowed with appropriate handicap ratings.
Any boat electing to use a jib sail larger than 110% shall declare the size of
such sail to the race committee prior to the warning signal for each race, and
the appropriate handicap shall be assessed for that race, whether that sail is
actually used or not. In any one regatta the same sails must be used to fill the
requirements of this section, unless there are extenuating circumstances, in
which case the measuring official may waive this requirement.

a. Spinnaker sails are authorized and may be used in the National Championship
Regatta and all sanctioned Regattas, with appropriate handicap ratings. Only two
measured spinnakers may be used in the same regatta. Any boat electing to use a
spinnaker shall declare such intent to the race committee prior to the warning
signal for each race, and the spinnaker handicap shall be assessed for that
race, whether it is actually used or not.

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