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Rudder Gudgeons - again

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bbriner
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349 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/13/2004 : 11:03:14

Yesterday my wife and I were out in a pretty good breeze (SF Bay) and I noticed a lot of wobbling in the tiller so I looked behind at the rudder and saw that one of the bolts holding the top gudgeon to the transom was nearly out. I immediately hove-to and screwed it back in. While doing so I noticed for the first time (I'm embarrassed to admit) that a PO had done *something* to it. It was bedded with some type of black gunk (like tar). The bottom one looks ok but I'll give it some more careful inspection. I've read through the old posts regarding this subject but I'm really new at this so I'm wondering if some of the other C25 verterans could share some pictures of how in the world I'm supposed to repair this? I saw reference to a 4" cut-out to install a new backing plate and also through-hulls into the transom (which sounds like something I could do).

Thoughts, recommendations, pictures, whatever, would be greatly appreciated!

Bill - "Wind Dancer" 84C25/FK/SR/#4096

Bill B
Wind Dancer
#4036 84 SR/FK
San Francisco Bay

Edited by - on

PZell
Admiral

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USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2004 : 12:01:00

Soon as my buddy Jim on Hey Jude sees your post he probably will reply. He just did a job on his rudder this weekend while I went sailing. Wheeeeee
wasn't that fun last weekend on the bay. Fri went around Angel Is. the wrong
way in a 20+ breeze and Sat must have been 25+ terrific downwind sail from
Alcatraz to over near the Farr 40 racers and around TI and back to Brisbane.
Will look for you on the bay. Where are you berthed?

Edited by - on

bbriner
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349 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2004 : 12:28:14

Paul
I was out last Sunday - did the same as you - a reverse trip from Richmond (where I'm berthed) to City front, to Tiburon, and then a very fast run back to Richmond! Winds at least 20kts. Yesterday was shaping up to be the same again - even bigger wind and waves though - until I realized that my rudder could fall off anytime and I high-tailed it back home.

I'll for you on the bay "Sparky"!!

Edited by - on

jwilliams
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357 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2004 : 13:41:33

Bill,

Yup, here I am.

Here is a post that will give you a good discussion.

http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4311&SearchTerms=gudgeon+bolt+

In the type of water we sail in on the Bay, I strongly suggest you immediately install thru-bolted gudgeons both top and bottom. It is pretty easy and much safer.

Paul was referring to the third gudgeon (8in. above the lower) I installed on Sat. Paul's Sparkey has three and I thought it made a lot of sense.

I had two incidents with loose, lost or broken screws. The first time I was beating home from the Dumbarton one afternoon to Redwood Creek. The lower gudgeon became loose and upon checking, I found only one loose screw holding it on. Because of waves I could only tighen the one (no spares). I motored home.

The replacement thru-bolted fix I did then on the bottom gudgeon still used 1/4 machine screws with nuts. A couple of weeks ago two of the heads broke off the lower gudgeon. So I have now upgraded all with 1/4 SS bolts with a shoulder long enough to go completely through the transom.

Ok, now I feel safe.

Jim Williams
Hey Jude C25fk 2958
SF Bay

Edited by - on

Jack Heaston
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 09/13/2004 : 19:48:24

While upgrading to the HD gudgeons from CD, I drilled a 3/16" test hole in the transom from inside the cockpit. After going in about 5/8" I was still in solid material, and abandoned the notion of drilling out what I suspect was a nearly solid core or a threaded brass bar glassed into the transom that holds the upper gudgeon. The lower gudgeon is apparently similarly secured, since I can see what appears to be something thick glassed into the transom from the access in the aft berth. The expert at CD was pretty sure my upper gudgeon was secured via thru-bolts in the transom, but it turned out not to be. You might try loosening yours with a screwdriver and see if they just screw out before going the cut-a-hole-in-the-transom route. I agree that with a proper backing plate it should be a bullet-proof installation, but a lot of work accessing the upper gudgeon.
I really liked the CD gudgeons with the neoprene (or some kind of composite) bushings for a nice tight fit and no rudder noise all night at anchor. A word of caution in mounting them, regardless if you follow the conventional wisdom of thru-bolting to backing plates or just replacing the 1/4" machine screws, providing your gudgeons are secured like mine. The holes in the CD gudgeons are oversized (maybe to accept 5/16" hardware?) and unless your very carefully measure the pintle spacing or hang the rudder on some kind of support while attaching and bedding the gudgeons, it's easy to miss the proper spacing and have only one gudgeon providing vertical support. My rudder doesn't weigh very much and I doubt it's an issue for me. Most of the forces, I think, are other than vertical, and I don't use the gudgeons for storing, trailering or raising the mast. Another caution - the neoprene lip on the bushing is just thick enough to raise the pintle such that the retaining hole is no longer accessible. I didn't notice this until after trailering 500 miles to Puget Sound. Decided that since the bushing/pintle fit was really snug and I was singlehanding for three weeks and wouldn't have inattentive crew aboard to lift up on the tiller handle, that enlarging the retaining hole in the upper pintle could wait until I got home. Being a pessimist, I secured the rudder to the aft pulpit with a piece of 1/4" line.
As you can imagine, I was tacking in about 10-12 kts of wind when I must have lifted the tiller handle with my knees. One has to see a suddenly rudderless sailboat under full canvas in a nice breeze to fully appreciate the result. After the boat did two 360s, I managed to get the sails down and in, thankfully, only 1' wind waves retrieved the rudder and after several tries, reset it in its gudgeons. I then bungeed it down via the cockpit drain holes, waved cheerfully to the appreciative crowd on the Port Townsend to Whidbey Island ferry and slunk into Port Hudson for several cold ones. Needless to say the retaining hole in the upper pintle has been deepened.
Whatever you decide, I wish you better luck than I experienced.
Jack
83 FK/SR 3944 Rag Act

Edited by - Jack Heaston on 09/13/2004 19:53:12

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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1893 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2004 : 20:16:04

Steering system failure is real high on my list of things to avoid. Consequently, when I upgraded my C-25 gudgeons and pintles, I drilled the holes in the rudder and transom 2x oversize, filled them with epoxy resin reinforced with milled fiberglass, and redrilled them to 5/16" or maybe 11/32". I used 5/16" SS machine bolts with fender washers and nylock nuts through 3/16" epoxy fiberglass backing plates, bedded with either polysulfide or 3M 4200. This required installing a 4" Beckson plate in the cockpit at the upper gudgeon. So far, so good after maybe a thousand miles, about half of it in the ocean.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

bbriner
Captain

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349 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2004 : 21:39:18

Steering system failure is real high on my list of things to avoid too! When I saw the bolt sticking out it I was very concerned about just that. I reached down and was to finger tighten it so it was very loose and quite a ways out already. I haven't had time yet to inspect these things as it was late when we got back and now I have to work instead of sail. I'm trying to put together a plan of action for this weekend so I won't be a non-sailer too long.

So, at this point, it appears that I will need to either drill through the transom with a new backing plate or cut-out the transom for access and install new backing plate. Is that really needed? Isn't there one there already? Why did this come loose in the first place? Did these not have locking/nuts on them?

I don't think I need new Gudgeons but it sounds like Jack likes the CD gudgeons.

Edited by - on

jwilliams
Captain

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357 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2004 : 22:33:44

Bill,

I was shocked to find that on my '82 that there were just machine screws threaded through the fiberglass transom into brass backers, fiberglassed into the inside of the transom.

Crawl in the quarter berth, remove the wooden cover and shine a flashlight on the transom. If you just have a bump about four inches by two inches, you have the same set up as Hey Jude used to, i.e. machine screws with no nuts!

Jim Williams
Hey Jude C25fk 2958
SF Bay

Edited by - on

SteveG
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 09/15/2004 : 08:04:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bbriner
 So, at this point, it appears that I will need to either drill through the transom with a new backing plate or cut-out the transom for access and install new backing plate. Is that really needed? Isn't there one there already? Why did this come loose in the first place? Did these not have locking/nuts on them?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

When my boat was being launched at the beginning of the season, the marina called me and told me that they noticed my rudder was VERY loose. I went down and took a look at it and found that I had through bolted gudgeons, but the nuts had backed off a good bit on both the upper and lower. I think it happened when I had an encounter with the mooring and my dinghy. Yes, last year was my first with the boat and I didn't know what I was doing at the time.

I was able to tighted the lower gudgeon easily throught the aft berth, but had to cut a hole and install an access hatch in the transom to get to the the upper gudgeon. It was after that when I found this web site and realized that this is a common problem and I had inadvertently fixed it the correct way. Yes, you've got to cut the hole!

Edited by - on

bbriner
Captain

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Response Posted - 09/15/2004 : 10:31:45

Thanks for the advice everyone. Yes, it appears I will have to cut the hole. All you who contribute to questions like this one make this site invaluable to so many people like me who don't have a clue

! Thanks for your help!

Edited by - on

deastburn
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Response Posted - 09/16/2004 : 12:55:31

A suggestion, which may be obvious, but anyway: Purchase a round (probably Beckson) deck plate before you drill any holes. You will need a four inch opening (anything less and you won't get good access to tighten the nuts inside the transom). That puts it outside the range of a hole saw (biggest I have is three inches). I'd recommend a three inch hole saw and then increase the hole with a drill-mounted rasp bit. Or use a sabre saw carefully and undersize the hole so you can trim it up later.

My rudder fell off the boat as I was heading into a storm just outside Gloucester, Mass, two days after I had viewed the "Perfect Storm"! Fortunately I was able to make it back into harbor using the outboard.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
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Response Posted - 09/16/2004 : 15:11:52

Whoa! There are lot of better ways to cut that hole that with rasp. My circle cutter does a fine job and is very cheap. I have cut 5.25" speaker holes in my cockpit with no trouble.

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jheard
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Response Posted - 09/16/2004 : 16:52:46

If the bolts just screwed back in, I wouldn't mess with it, as long as that bedding compound gives you a tight seal.

If any of the bolts are broken, or it is leaking, then I would go to the trouble of replacing the gudgeons and bolts.

In that case, check the posts here. I did the job, which is basically removing the old bolts and replacing them with bigger ones. I also bought the after-market gudgeons from Catalina Direct which are higher quality.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2004 : 18:37:05

I have only replaced my lower, drilled the holes out and used through bolts. I do not believe I would be happy with reusing the stock bolts in a gudgeon with larger holes. With as much torque as there is on a gudgeon I would want the mounting holes to have the proper size bolt to reduce slippage and leaks.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2004 : 21:19:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 Whoa! There are lot of better ways to cut that hole that with rasp. My circle cutter does a fine job and is very cheap. I have cut 5.25" speaker holes in my cockpit with no trouble.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Can this device cut through the coachroof (2 layers of fiberglass and a plywood core)? I want to install a solar vent in a 4-3/4" hole, but the only hole saw I can find costs about a full boat unit--for something I will use exactly once (unless I buy another boat).

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Buzz Maring
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Response Posted - 09/16/2004 : 22:53:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Can this device cut through the coachroof (2 layers of fiberglass and a plywood core)? I want to install a solar vent in a 4-3/4" hole, but the only hole saw I can find costs about a full boat unit--for something I will use exactly once (unless I buy another boat). - Dave Bristle<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Hi Dave,

I plan to install a solar vent, too, but I haven't gotten around to it yet. I did find some big hole saws that might work, and they're cheap enough to throw away after you're done. They're not the best quality, but if you're only going to use them once, they'll probably do the job.

Harbor Freight Tools sells several hole saw kits. I just went to the garage and looked at the one I bought, and there isn't a 4 3/4", but there is a 5" ... if you think you can make that work, take a look: [url="http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=36222"]Hole saw kit[/url]

The kit in the link looks just like the one I bought, but the sizes are different from mine ... there is also a 6" hole saw in my kit, and that one isn't listed in the description in the link.

BTW, have you figured out where you're going to put your solar vent?

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2004 : 23:21:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Buzz Maring
 
Harbor Freight Tools sells several hole saw kits. I just went to the garage and looked at the one I bought, and there isn't a 4 3/4", but there is a 5" ... if you think you can make that work, take a look: [url="http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=36222"]Hole saw kit[/url]

The kit in the link looks just like the one I bought, but the sizes are different from mine ... there is also a 6" hole saw in my kit, and that one isn't listed in the description in the link.

BTW, have you figured out where you're going to put your solar vent?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm not comfortable with cutting a 5" hole--I'd rather go 4-1/2 and open it up with a file, taking off an eighth of an inch all the way around. I'm also uncomfortable with using a sabre saw because of the curve in the surface. A hole saw will give me a cut that's parallel all the way around. But if I have to file it open, maybe that's less of an issue. I just know that making a hole that big calls for getting it right!

As for placement, I'm undecided between centering it over the head, centering it in front of the mast, or putting it in the forward hatch. The latter is the lowest risk--a hatch can be replaced, but a coachroof can't.

What about you, Buzz?

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
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Response Posted - 09/16/2004 : 23:40:30

As for placement, I'm undecided between centering it over the head, centering it in front of the mast, or putting it in the forward hatch. The latter is the lowest risk--a hatch can be replaced, but a coachroof can't. What about you, Buzz? - Dave

Wow ... that is EXACTLY the same debate I've had with myself ... and also the reason I've not yet completed the project (I bought the solar vent two years ago

).

I am leaning toward installing it in the hatch. As you mentioned, the hatch can be replaced ... I sorta' want one of those sexy lexan hatches anyway ... they're just toooooo expensive!

Edited by - on

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 09/17/2004 : 08:07:43

Just received my spiffy NEW and IMPROVED Catalina 25 handbook from Catalina Direct yesterday and noticed that one of their offerings is a hole saw extension (works on a 3/8" drill) for cutting an upper gudgeon access hole. They rent it for $10 with a $30 refundable core charge.

Steve

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2004 : 10:08:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Buzz Maring
 Wow ... that is EXACTLY the same debate I've had with myself ... and also the reason I've not yet completed the project (I bought the solar vent two years ago

).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Me too.

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Luckenbach
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 09/18/2004 : 20:04:13

Hi all,
Here's a link to the pictures we took repairing the upper gudgeon on a 1984 Catalina 25. Really not that hard to do, and you can see in the pictures just how far you have to cut to get to the backing plate. On the 84 the backing plate had threads in it for the bolts, but we put nuts on too.

http://www.sailingtexas.com/chowtogudgeoncatalina25.html

Luckenbach

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2004 : 20:41:24

Hey--there's another use for the gold-plated platinum hole saw I need for the solar vent! That'll make it just half a million dollars per use! Then I can put in on E-Bay.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2004 : 22:32:34

Can this device cut through the coachroof (2 layers of fiberglass and a plywood core)? I want to install a solar vent in a 4-3/4" hole, but the only hole saw I can find costs about a full boat unit--for something I will use exactly once (unless I buy another boat).
[/quote]

If you look closely at the picture you can see the actual cutter blade, it is a square shaft and cuts extremely well. You can see the cutter is extended about an inch, two would be pushing it with mine but I assume the depth is decided by the cutter you purchase. I have had this tool most of my life and it paid for itself in my twenties.

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ClamBeach
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Response Posted - 09/18/2004 : 23:32:53

I think you could thru-drill a pilot hole and use the fly cutter on the outer fiberglass layers, working from both above and below.. then use a sabre saw or keyhole saw to finish the cut through the coring layers.

I wouldn't try to cut the whole marianne with one.

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bbriner
Captain

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349 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2004 : 12:33:55

Well, the job is done. Everything worked out..sort of. The Catalina Direct Gudgeon Access Kit and Hole Saw (rental) were fine except the 4" dia hole (inside) is very snug. I noticed lkater that the parts were labelled with "C22" - it the C22 gudgeon smaller than the C25?

BTW I'm glad I used the saw because there is a lot more wood there than I was expecting and the backing plate (plywood) was also thicker than expected. It wood have been quite difficult doing this with a hand saw.

Here are the "after" photos:

The cleaned and re-seated gudgeon. I used 3M 4200.

Here's the inside access port. Notice how 'snug' it is.

Now, I can sail again!!

Thanks for all your help...
Bill B
"Wind Dancer" 84C25/SR

Edited by - on

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 09/20/2004 : 13:11:29

Bill - I didn't notice this earlier, but the C25 in the slip next to mine is also named Wind Dancer. (Why I think it's important for me to tell you that, I don't know.)

Steve

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