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Another Gin Pole Solution

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528
Navigator

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USA
181 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/22/2010 : 20:26:42

I was looking for a simple way to raise and lower the mast on the boat. After researching past threads, I decided to try my approach, and so far so good. I use it on my 2001 that doesn't have the stub hole in the front of the mast. These pics may be confusing since I didn't remove any running rigging. I lowered the mast today to remove the topping lift.(Last week I installed a boomkicker after reading Randys review, and am very happy with it.) The basis for the system is exchanging the mast step bolt with a longer one to accomodate the gin pole. I used rope stays with caribeaners for lateral support (they clip to the stantion bases), and a fixed line to the bow stem for resistance(using a stainless shackle). The important part is getting a thick wall aluminum tube to mount the winch to. I connect the raising strap the same as using the trailer system.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/23/2010 : 07:20:20

Very cool. Why not use the wire "baby stays" for lateral support?

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Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 03/23/2010 : 07:35:55

Dave... looks like a very good system. One suggestion based on my experience to tweak it just a little would be to mount the winch lower on the pole at the most comfortable height for user and use a block at the top to turn the line down to the winch. Mount the crank handle on the port side so the operator is facing aft to keep an eye on shroud lines during the raising process.

Great idea to use the long bold in the mast step.

Edited by - on

528
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181 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2010 : 09:15:57

John, You still use the factory stays for the mast. The rope stays are for the gin pole. It does require a bit of "steering", but you can set the mast precisely in the aft carrier.

Arlyn, Good observation on mounting, the handle is on starboard so I can use my right hand(dominant) to guide the mast. I'm using a strap on the winch, precluding use of a turning block. The only drawback is the starboard gin stay obstructing the winch handle, but easily overcome by squeezing the line toward the gin pole.

The whole system stores in a cabin locker, one of my design goals. I modified the aft carrier years ago to mount over the top of the rudder gudgeons, so rudder removal is not required.

Edited by - on

SEAN
Admiral

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Response Posted - 03/23/2010 : 10:53:11

nice !!

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 03/23/2010 : 12:24:52

I like this idea, I wonder if my spinnaker pole can be used to implement it?

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/23/2010 : 12:55:02

Great idea on the long mast bolt! I concocted a harness setup but your solution is much better and I will try it out. We have never had a problem with the gin pole having side-to-side movement requiring stays. I bet you could do without them on the gin pole.

Glad you like the Boomkicker. We love ours.

David, maybe a fixed length spin pole would work but I sure wouldn't try an adjustable one. Aluminum tubing is inexpensive. We got our gin pole material at: [url="http://www.onlinemetals.com/"]Online Metals[/url]. It is in Seattle so you could just go get the stuff.

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528
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181 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2010 : 13:46:50

Speaking from experience, don't try this without gin pole stays. The base bolt does not hold the gin pole rigid enough with stability- the same principle as the latterally unstable mast when raising/lowering! Also, use a hardened bolt of the same diameter through the mast base. Although I don't have it, if you solid plugged the bottom 6" of the gin pole and drilled for the base bolt, it should increase the integrity of the connection.

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islander
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Response Posted - 03/23/2010 : 14:52:20

Very nice! I like it. About how long is the pole? I suppose you could use ratcheting cargo straps for the lateral support of the pole. It might make the set up a little easer and the hardened bolt is a must. I would think that it takes a lot of pressure and if it broke, Well the pole through the cabin top is NOT a nice addition.

Edited by - on

528
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181 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2010 : 16:20:25

Scott, the lateral stays and bow line are at a fixed distance. You lay the pole on deck, exchange the mast bolt, connect the side stays with spring type caribeaners and attach the shakle to the bow stem. Takes a little over a minute. No adjustments are required until the next step. The trick is making a bowline at the right distance from the raising strap. You want to let out a foot and a half of the winch strap. This is connected to the raising strap line and retracted to get a little tension on the mast. At this point, loosen your back and side stays and remove the furler pin. I'll get a measurement for you tomorrow.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 03/23/2010 : 18:39:02

Hmmm, I have used our gin pole on several occasions and there was no side-to-side gin pole movement at all. The line is taut from the mast to the gin pole and then from the gin pole to the anchor locker eye. The mast is held steady by the baby stays.

On my system (which I think is more typical) the line from the mast to the gin pole is fixed while the winch connects the gin pole to the anchor locker eye. I think that may be the difference.

The dynamics of the two approaches seem different to me. On your system the gin pole acts as the base that the winch draws the mast to. On typical systems the gin pole simply acts as a lever between the mast and the anchor locker eye. The gin pole moves as the mast moves. I think your system puts more pressure on the gin pole.

Maybe Arlyn will chime in. He's good with dynamics.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 03/23/2010 18:49:07

528
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181 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2010 : 20:03:45

Randy, this is similar to the A-frame concept. The difference is the offset of the gin pole. I originally tried this without side stays, and the pole wanted to lop over to one side. The difference is the non-precise connection at the base of the mast. The side stays are very much in play in creating stability for the pole. Geometrically, I believe the forces are similar, but that math class was too many years ago!

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2010 : 05:31:19

It seems to me that theory is almost always superseded by (proof in the pudding) experiential test and I accept Dave's affirmation that the gin pole stays are needed due to offset of the pole.

A mono pole depends upon the mast staying aligned, which forces one to ensure that the temporary baby stays are snug and if so, a mono pole will stay aligned so I understand Randy's point. Dave, were/are your baby stays snug or is there some slack to one side when mast raising?

I agree with Dave's characterization that his stayed pole acts like an A frame if the stays are secure and taught. Given that, the baby stays are not critical and some looseness would be no concern and if the gin pole and stays are stable... then theoretically no baby stays would even be needed as long as the boat was fairly level.

I'm not convinced that rigid conduit is needed for the length that is involved. I'm not using rigid on my mono pole.

As to using an adjustable whisker pole for the gin pole... if it can be used in the collapsed position and doing so didn't damage the adjusting mechanism I'd think the pole would be strong enough.

Edited by - on

528
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181 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2010 : 06:28:58

The stays on the mast are snug as are the stays on the gin pole. One item that may be clouding the concept, I call it a gin pole, when technically it's not. Crane is probably more accurate. Your observation about a level platform is significant. Being an on-the-water system, I envisioned a rocking/pitching environment as worst case scenario. Any stability that could be gained overall, gave me a more secure feeling. If things go badly, the result would be costly and dangerous. Again, you can't skimp on the pole strength, it's the foundation of this system.

Edited by - on

528
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181 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2010 : 07:11:02

Scott, the pole is 6'.

This is the mast crutch mounted over the gudgeons. If I remeber right(7 yrs ago), I had to grind a bit off the starboard side bottom pad so it would clear the rudder.

This is the entire setup inside the cabin.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/24/2010 : 12:50:07

Dave, perhaps you are right and it is the offset that makes the difference. If that is the case then I will stick with the mast collar I devised because it centers the pole on the mast. The connection is still a loose one but I never get sideways movement because the lines are all very taut. Interesting thread.

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Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 03/24/2010 : 16:58:16

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> I'm not using rigid on my mono pole.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I should clarify... Nor am I using EMT conduit, which I wouldn't use.

Edited by - on

Tradewind
Admiral

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531 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2010 : 15:20:05

Good information, I'm dropping the mast for the first time in April and I'm a little apprehensive. I have the baby stays and plan to rig some kind of gin pole system. Also hauling out for the first time to do a bottom job and move the boat and plan to use the strap method.

Edited by - Tradewind on 03/25/2010 15:21:48

Tradewind
Admiral

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Response Posted - 04/03/2010 : 08:29:04

Any advice on the length of the gin pole? I have a 9' spinnaker pole from a previous boat that I'm trying to figure out how to mount at the base of the mast. Another option I'm looking at is an A frame, but that would cost around $180 from the boat shop. I'll probably be dropping the mast solo so I'm trying to keep it safe and simple.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2010 : 08:38:07

A trick I learned from folks on this forum is to softly lash the shrouds to the lifelines before moving the mast (up or down).

We had to replace a couple of the T bolts on the ends of the shroud turnbuckles when they were bent (someone I know really really well trod on them) and they bent incredibly easy.

Now I use a piece of double sided velcro to keep them upright during mast movements, eliminating the risk of bending pressure put on the turnbuckles.

Paul

Edited by - on

Tradewind
Admiral

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Response Posted - 04/03/2010 : 08:48:41

Thanks Paul, I did bend one of the T bolts when I raised the mast 4 years ago, I like the velcro idea.

Edited by - Tradewind on 04/03/2010 15:24:31

528
Navigator

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181 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2010 : 05:38:26

Steve, I use a bungee cord on the turnbuckles. You slip the hook through the top of the connector and hook the other end to the lifeline. This forces the turnbuckle to stand upright and works perfect. I found this to be simple, quick and effective.

Edited by - on

Tradewind
Admiral

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Response Posted - 04/04/2010 : 10:10:15

Thanks 528, good idea.

Anyone have a length measurement for a gin pole? My boat is 4 hours away and the pole is here, I'm hoping 9' will work. The big concern is how to connect it to the mast.

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/04/2010 : 16:53:51

My gin pole is 8 feet long. It breaks down into two 4 foot segments. Here is a photo of the assembled gin pole showing about 5 feet of the assembly.

Here is the end (with a SS bimini fitting) that attaches to a connection I put on the mast:

Here are the two halves:

Here is the mast connection. It is made up of some large "U" bolts with another bimini fitting:

The gin pole works great. The line from the winch goes through a block at the end of the pole and then to the eye in the anchor locker. Also attached to the top of the pole (across from the winch line) is a line that runs to the mast "collar" that comes with the C250 for mast raising. In lieu of that line you can use the jib halyard. Crank the winch and the mast goes up or down. Works great. For us the baby stays on the mast keep the whole operation stable.

We start with the gin pole at a 90 degree angle to the mast (mast is laying down) with the two lines taut. Then just crank and keep your eyes out, as always, to make sure no lines, shrouds, turnbuckles or other gear gets snagged.

Edited by - on

Tradewind
Admiral

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531 Posts

Response Posted - 04/05/2010 : 05:53:51

Thanks Randy, great description. When lowering the mast how is the winch controlled so that the weight of the mast does not pull the winch handle out of your hand? Do you need someone monitoring/holding the mast as it's lowered? Also, the collar fits below the spreaders, correct? I have the baby stays and a collar. Where did you find the winch, looks to be similar to the type of winch used on a trailer. Do you recall the size of the u-bolts used at the base of the mast? I could build that assembly for the base of the mast if I knew the u-bolt size or the width of the mast, would save me a trip to the boat.

Thanks

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/05/2010 : 07:09:09

Steve, will post details and photos tonight.

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