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Another Gin Pole Solution

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sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
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Response Posted - 11/14/2010 : 22:32:32

Good thread. My mast crutch is a pinned pole with a roller and plastic protected guides which does allow me to move the mast when resting on it. I do use lines to brace the crutch when pushing the mast out to bolt it to the mast step.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 11/16/2010 : 20:26:27

I hope I did not wear out my welcome asking for advice. I've changed my plan yet again. The cost and shipping for an adequately sized pole was getting ridiculous, since I could not find one available locally. But I found a perfectly adequate fir 2x4 for $3. I already have a U-bolt that fits the mast, and a winch with strap, and have bought a trailer roller to go at the end for the strap to loop around (instead of a block with winch line). The winch is a Fulton T600, which I think should be adequate for the task.

I'm hoping that the gin pole with the roller at the end can also do some double-duty as a crutch for holding the mast up under the tarp, but I need to work out the logistics of that (probably drop the mast onto a sawhorse temporarily, then remove the gin pole and re-attach it near the stern).

Also I have decided to go with ratcheted tie down straps (breaking load 1000 lbs) instead of the baby stays. Two will go from the bails in the stanchions to the mast, and two others to the gin pole to help stabilize it.

I'll supply pictures of the gin pole as I finish it in the next day or so.

Do any of you see anything to be concerned about here? I know the tie down straps are less strong than the wire baby stays, but how much tension can they withstand without damaging the stanchions?

Edited by - TakeFive on 11/17/2010 07:39:59

skybird
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Response Posted - 11/16/2010 : 20:46:06

if you have a friend in the RV repair business, i bet you could find several usable aluminum extrusions from wrecked awnings. I built my gin pole with a piece of roller, because i had already used the stanchions from it to build a hang glider launch cart. I think i like the ratchet strap idea if you watch tension as they won't pivot from the same axis

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2270 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2010 : 20:56:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by skybird
 ...I think i like the ratchet strap idea if you watch tension as they won't pivot from the same axis
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
But I think they have to pivot from the same axis. Otherwise Catalina's wire baby stays, which barely stretch at all, would tear the stanchions off the roof. I'll have to verify, but I think the stanchions are directly to the sides of the mast, and the bails are welded at the same height as the keel bolt, specifically so that everything does pivot from the same axis. This also makes the bails a good place to secure the straps for the gin pole so that everything pivots from the same axis and tension stays constant.

I've spent two weeks checking every place I can find for a pole, and I'm just worn out, so I think I'll stick with the 2x4, which is already under construction. But I appreciate your suggestion nevertheless!

Edited by - TakeFive on 11/16/2010 20:58:37

skybird
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Response Posted - 11/16/2010 : 21:22:28

Sounds like that may be one of the C250 improvements over C25. I just went outside and looked and my 25 has no stanchion anywhere close to in line with the mast. Hmm, what if i added one there??
Looks like a bail would have to be about 2/3 of the way up the stanchion to line up with the axis of the bolt, but it sure would reduce the danger of messing something up.

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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 11/17/2010 : 05:06:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by skybird
 Sounds like that may be one of the C250 improvements over C25. I just went outside and looked and my 25 has no stanchion anywhere close to in line with the mast. Hmm, what if i added one there??
Looks like a bail would have to be about 2/3 of the way up the stanchion to line up with the axis of the bolt, but it sure would reduce the danger of messing something up.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I think most of the A-frame setups for the C25 go to the chain plates. Also, since the C250 has no side decks, the stanchions are on top of the cabin, so the bails can be right at the base and still be aligned with the mast step.

You do not want to weld bails that high on your stanchions - too much lever arm torquing it. Any attachment should be right at the base. Obviously the lifeline puts pressure at the top, but that's primarily for emergency use.

Edited by - on

skybird
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Response Posted - 11/17/2010 : 21:36:36

I wonder about a cable yoke attached to the bails on stanchions fore and aft of the mast,making an attachment point at the right height and position for the rachet straps? I think that might work and be safer and quicker than trying to continually adjust for less than optimal placement of anchor points. Could be made with quick attachment for stanchions and a ring at the proper location for the pivot.I'll give it a look in the daylight tomorrow. Thanks for suggestions and keeping my thinking fresh!

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 11/20/2010 : 16:43:02

I have my gin pole and crutch built (both from 2x4s, both with very hefty trailer rollers on the end). Everything is mounted on the boat ready to go. We ran out of daylight, and had 20-30 mph gusts today. Hopefully we'll drop the mast tomorrow after church. But I have one last question:

On the C250 the bails for the "baby stays" are welded to stanchions that are exactly to the sides of the mast step bolt. But they do appear to be slightly higher than the bolt. This means that as the stays pivot back with the mast, they would get tighter, which is a nice way to counteract the loosening of both the upper and lower shrouds as the mast 1lowers (which are all aft of the mast step). Presumably the baby stays are a little loose when the mast is up, and grow more taut as the mast lowers. (Could another C250 owner please confirm this?)

As I mentioned elsewhere, I am not going to buy Catalina's baby stays at this point. I am using ratcheted tie-down straps from mast to bails, and from gin pole to bails, to keep everything centered. I can adjust the tension in these as I wish.

By confirming or correcting the above statement, you can help me decide how taut to ratchet my tie-down straps. I do not want to get in a situation where the mast is halfway down and I need to loosen them or risk torquing my stanchions too much.

One last question: Any tricks needed to keep the furler/forestay safely out of the way as the mast comes down?

Edited by - on

zeil
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Canada
1297 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2010 : 18:00:15

Baby stays on our '95 WB, when attached to mast and stanchions having the original location and connections of the stays as provided by Catalina, are somewhat slack and stay that way throughout the entire arc, keeping, what we feel, the mast exactly on center line without any noticeable strain on the tabernacle/mast goose-neck fitting.

We've gin-pole raised and lowered the mast both on the water and on the trailer without problems more than once...

BTW ours is a hank-on jib

Enjoy church tomorrow

Edited by - on

Tradewind
Admiral

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USA
531 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2010 : 06:03:28

The baby stays I ordered from Catalina were too short, I had to add a shackle to the bail on the stanchion in order to close the pelican hook. They were snug when the lowering process began and became tighter when the mast was down. I don't think they need to be extremely tight while lowering, just snug enough to keep the mast centered.

Edited by - Tradewind on 11/21/2010 11:17:30

528
Navigator

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181 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2010 : 06:50:39

The issue of tension on the baby stays is not an issue of tension. They are there merely to keep the mast "in column". You want some amount of freedom so as to not stress the stantions. It's the same as loosening the standing rigging in order to lower the mast. Make sure to secure your pelican hooks with tape to preclude an unwanted opening.(cheap insurance) An open hook would definately ruin your day!

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 11/21/2010 : 20:40:49

The mast is down. Thanks for all your helpful comments.

Here is my gin pole, which worked great:

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That is a 20 year old spare tire bracket to attach to the mast. The newer one that I bought was heavier gauge rod, which left insufficient room for the nuts on either side of the 2x4.

The only thing I might change with the gin pole is to put a different winch on. [2011 edit: I upgraded the winch to 1000 lb.] It was pulling pretty hard against the short handle, and though I never lost control, had I let go I would have never regained control with the ratchet disabled. It would be nice to find one with adjustable friction brake. Does such a winch exist?

Here are pics of the pole rigged up. The red ratchet straps kept both the mast and pole in column. Since these do not have pelican clips, I used duct tape across the opening to ensure the ones to the mast did not fall out. You'll see two lines coming off the top of the pole. I used BOTH the jib halyard to the top of the mast AND made a harness to run a second line to just beneath the spreaders. I wanted redundancy for this critical function. The red bucket in the pic is there to put the furler into so it does not scratch up the figerglass:

<center>

</center>

My biggest delay was caused by difficulty disconnecting the forestay. I could not even get the port backstay shackle to release because it was so taut. I had to turn to backstay turnbuckle 20 turns and have a friend pull down as hard as he could on the backstay to get the port shackle to release. After that I was able to easily remove the forestay. The owners manual gives no hint that releasing the forestay is so complicated.

My crutch did not work perfectly, largely because I could not find a good place to secure it in lieu of gudgeons. I used a bimini swivel with removable clevis pin attached to a metal loop welded into the rear pulpit to bear the brunt of the weight, and a broom clamp below it to keep the pole vertical:
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</center>

The moment arm was awfully long, so I relocated the parts to shorten the crutch. It was stable enough to support the mast once it dropped, but when we removed the step bolt to walk the mast forward, the forward force on the crutch was too much (even with the roller) and the broom clamp released. I ended up reinforcing it by lashing to the pulpit, but I'm uncomfortable with relying on the pulpit since it's just attached to the fuel locker with nuts and small washers. I'm afraid a good wind storm against a tarp could put too much pressure on the crutch and damage the pulpit or fuel locker. So after I took these pictures I lashed an 8' 2x4 across the perch seat pulpits and set the mast on it for the time being. [2011 edit: I replaced this hardware with gate hinge hardware to make "pintles".] I need to find a better alternative for under the tarp, so I'm thinking I'll put a sawhorse across the cockpit lockers in addition to a PVC support like Randy has. [2011 edit: I use a sawhorse in the cockpit for supporting the mast.]

<center>

</center>

Edited by - TakeFive on 12/08/2011 22:49:36

skybird
Navigator

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USA
135 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2010 : 20:25:24

i used a 2x4 braced by a 2x2 strip screwed to the back of it for a stiffener and ran 1/4 by 4" eye bolts thru it in pairs 3/4" apart and 19" between the pairs for a trailer support and 2 pairs to raise it for lowering/raising the mast. 1/2" bolts thru the eyes with the gudgeons trapped in the middle and it is much more stable than the 2x4 across the stern rail like it came to me.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2270 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2010 : 21:34:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by skybird
 i used a 2x4 braced by a 2x2 strip screwed to the back of it for a stiffener and ran 1/4 by 4" eye bolts thru it in pairs 3/4" apart and 19" between the pairs for a trailer support and 2 pairs to raise it for lowering/raising the mast. 1/2" bolts thru the eyes with the gudgeons trapped in the middle and it is much more stable than the 2x4 across the stern rail like it came to me.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Thanks for the suggestion. I'm trying to envision it without pictures. From what I gather, this requires removing the rudder, which is not easily done with my steering mechanism. So I'll most likely make an old-fashioned sawhorse out of 2x4s and lay the mast across that to help support a full-size tarp.

Edited by - on

skybird
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USA
135 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2010 : 21:52:53

Sorry, i forgot you didn't want to remove rudder--might be able to rig a bracket that would still hook over the gudgeons and offset the crutch to one side without removing rudder--not as easy but i think a good solution is a second set of gudgeons installed to one side--i think that's what i would do if the rudder needed to stay attached

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2270 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2011 : 22:17:23

I captured the mast lowering on video this year. [url="http://www.facebook.com/v/2305547526921"]Click here[/url] to see the video.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2011 : 04:34:53

Very nicely done Rick. It looked as though the greatest effort was lowering the gin pole once the mast was down.

Using the straps as gin pole baby stays looks very effective. Do you have the original baby stays? I don't see them being used in your video.

I'm currious about the attachment of the gin pole to the mast. It looks like you unbolt the tire hanger from the base of the pole to remove it from the mast. Had you considered an alternative method? Would a friction fit 'horseshoe' type bracket on the end of the pole work?

Thanks for posting the video, shows how easy it is. We still have not lowered the mast on the water, but have done it about 70 times using the trailer mast raising system. Down here in SoFla, being able to easily lower and raise the mast would make a big difference as there are many fixed bridges from the ocean to the bay in the keys, so having that option would expand the choices when cruising.

Paul

Edited by - on

britinusa
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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2011 : 04:53:31

Ok, another question...

You have two eye bolts on the top front of the gin pole. One looks like it's used for a line from the mid mast to the pole, is the other for the forestay?

When I raise/lower the mast using the trailer system, I wrap a line around the mast and furler extrusion, about 4-5 feet from the base that secures the forestay to the mast.

I use the unused jib halyard to raise and lower the mast.

Your system is very appealingly simple.

FYI, I made a sunbrella boot that fits over the furler drum when it's not attached to the bow. There is a leather disk sown into the inside bottom of the boot so that the tangs on the underside of the drum won't wear through the sunbrella. It keeps the grot off when trailering while protecting the drum from the Florida sun when parked at the house as well as prevents scratching the deck when moving the stay around while raising / lowering the mast.

thanks again.

Paul

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/08/2011 : 22:30:21

Paul,

My boat did not come with baby stays. They could have been lost by the PO, but I suspect that the baby stays are only included when you purchase a trailer with the mast raising system option. I called Catalina last year to get a quote on them, but their delivery time was longer than I was willing to wait. If I lived in Annapolis there'd be a bunch of places that I could walk in and have them made while I wait, but there are no riggers that I know of really close to me here. The baby stays are overkill anyway - the ratchet straps are perfectly adequate, and as you can see I have a second pair to keep the gin pole in column as well.

A friction fit on the mast might be quicker, but attaching/detaching the nuts on the tire bracket is an annoyance I'm willing to live with once or twice a year. Others here have used bimini hardware with a tubular gin pole, but the cost of thick walled aluminum poles was ridiculous, so a $3 2x4 was my most economical solution. Its flat face provides a more secure mount for the trailer winch anyway.

The two eyebolts are used for redundant lines to the mast. The top eyebolt secures the unused jib halyard (like you do) and the lower eyebolt secures the line that goes to the harness just below the spreaders (which is held up by the main halyard). Since a failure of either of these would be catastrophic and perhaps fatal, I opted for redundancy here.

When I lowered the mast last year I attempted to tie the red bucket (seen in pictures above) to protect the furler drum. This was not successful - I should have secured a cloth around it like you describe. This year I lashed the furler extrusion to the top eyebolt, which kept the drum easily out of the way and prevented the extrusion from flopping around too much. On the video you can see the drum lift up with the end of the gin pole. I briefly considered attaching the furler to an eyebolt, but the forestay was too long and would have had excessive slack. Lashing the furler just above the drum took out much of this slack.

In rereading above description from last year, I realize that I pretty much addressed all the deficiencies:

I got tired of moving the trailer winch back and forth from my Trophy trailer, so I bought a new one dedicated to the gin pole. When I did this, I upgraded from the 600 lb model to the 1000 lb model. The lower gearing is much more suitable for the high stresses of raising/lowering mast.

I also upgraded the mast support. I did away with the inadequate broomstick attachment hardware shown above and replaced it with "pintles" that were designed for a fence gate hinge:

<center>

</center>

You'll see that I have not sawed off the bolts yet, because I plan to attach another 2x3 along the centerline of the pole to give it more rigidity. After that I'll hack off the excess bolt thread. These pintles became viable because, unlike last year, I removed the rudder this time, making the gudgeons available to mount the mast support. (You'll recall from the "Sloppy Rudder" thread that the rudder was removed to replace my damaged gudgeon.) I still am not all that crazy about the mast support pole for long term storage - it's a really long moment arm that can apply a lot of stress to the gudgeons if the wind blows hard, so I reconstructed my sawhorse under the mast and moved the mast to rest on it:

<center>

</center>

All I need to do now is throw a tarp over everything and I'll be done for the winter.

Edited by - TakeFive on 12/08/2011 22:35:00

Sam001
Vice Commodore

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Response Posted - 02/12/2012 : 03:57:57

great thread I have been considering the best way to lower the mast and I like the safe and inexpensive way.

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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 11/19/2012 : 04:00:35

I captured some good video of the mast lowering this year:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=3989656028581& set=vb.1496259315& type=3& theater

I'll post a few pics of improvements that I made to the equipment later.

Edited by - TakeFive on 11/19/2012 04:03:15

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 11/19/2012 : 19:06:40

Here are some updates to the mast lowering pics that I've posted over the past 2 years.

For my homemade mast cradle, I glued and screwed an additional 2x3 onto the original 2x4 to provide greater fore-aft stiffness. Note that I also insert two 1x3's between the transom and the cradle lumber to prevent rotation and wobble. This is a much more stable arrangement than before. Note that I still have to remove the rudder to use the gudgeons, but I prefer to store the rudder in a climate controlled environment anyway:
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</center>

Last spring when raising the mast, I rolled the mast along cradle to get the mast base to the step bracket. The black rubber roller left an unsightly black mark along the aft part of the mast. Fortunately, this did not cause the sail lugs to bind this season. However, I still wanted to eliminate this from happening in the future, so I replaced the roller with a polyurethane one from the local boat trailer store:

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</center>

Also, I still do not leave the mast in the cradle during storage. Instead, I build a sawhorse in the cockpit (as shown above) and set the mast on that. I remove the cradle for indoor storage during the winter, and throw a couple of tarps over the whole thing:

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</center>

Edited by - on

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