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C25 towing requirements

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2012 : 09:04:25

"The Trailer Guys" in Boat/US magazine, professionals in the field, say a safety reserve is built in by the manufacturer and you are fine as long as you stay within the limits. They also say that if you tow often at 90% of capacity, you should get a vehicle with more capacity for long term durability. Reasonable overkill never hurts, and I certainly would opt for more vehicle if I towed regularly. Caution is the word when towing. You could tow with 20,000 lb. truck and the truck will be pretty stable, but the boat and trailer could still jackknife into the next lane in a panic stop.

edit: So, my experience is that the G. Cherokee V-8 is right for me for an annual round trip to Florida (no problem up or down Tenn. mountains) and Lake Erie from souther Ohio.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 01/17/2012 09:16:20

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2012 : 09:21:48

The "tow ratings" of many vehicles on the road are a serious joke.

If you really want knowledgable opinions on towing (not saying there aren't any here) haunt some RV forums. This towing topic comes up there like "blue water sailboat" and "what boat to buy" threads pop up on sailing forums.

It's all about controlling the load. I've seen "featherweight" travel trailers in the 40' range that come in under 7500#....wanna tow that with a Jeep GC? Just because the load meets "specs" doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Now, of course I'm talking about actually towing something somewhere, not just hooking up and pulling through the yard or down the street to the storage lot. But even then, always use good judgement.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9015 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2012 : 09:34:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 ...You could tow with 20,000 lb. truck and the truck will be pretty stable, but the boat and trailer could still jackknife into the next lane in a panic stop.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">True. But if the jackknife causes the tow vehicle to go sideways (I'm sure I'm not the only one to see an 18-wheeler do it), suddenly there's no control over what happens next.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2012 : 10:15:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Diver
 The "tow ratings" of many vehicles on the road are a serious joke.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And have been for a long time.

[url="http://www.freep.com/article/20110710/COL14/107100441/Mark-Phelan-Truck-makers-agree-toe-line-new-towing-standards"]Mark Phelan: Truck makers agree to toe the line on new towing standards[/url]

From the article...

The big difference, and the reason the SAE standard is a breakthrough, is that, until now, automakers could pretty much make up the numbers they claimed for towing capacity. Each company designed its own test, and -- Surprise! -- their trucks always aced the tests. Imagine the Environmental Protection Agency didn't exist, and car companies could make up fuel-economy figures to boost sales.

It was caveat emptor, and catch me if you can.

Manufacturers would boast about the amount their pickups and SUVs could tow, and the exhaustive engineering and testing used to determine the towing capacity.

When a new truck claimed a higher, more impressive, number, the other manufacturers would rewrite the spec sheets. Their trucks' towing capacity -- amazingly, coincidentally ... magically! -- increased to match or beat the new kid on the block.

So if you're going to trust what the manufacturer currently says about towing capacity,...well,...good luck with that!

Edited by - dlucier on 01/17/2012 10:20:11

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2012 : 10:56:36

And if you purchase a perviously owned tow vehicle that already has a hitch installed - be sure to check the rating.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2012 : 11:27:15

Stumbled across this looking fo rthe different load ratings and thought it worthy of a cross post. Have a read.

http://www.sherline.com/lmbook.htm

Also remember that very few of us are trained to tow a load with teh profile our boats have. Much windage aloft, strange centre of gravity, and unusual handling.

Edited by - on

Sam001
Vice Commodore

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USA
441 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2012 : 11:43:37

I just got some popcorn.... :-)
All agree that it is: Safey First!
And then it is mitigating the risk without violating safety.
I am in the geography group--flat is a whole lot different than hills and mountains.
Things I would tow safely of the flat I would NOT tow in the mountains.
Anyone got butter for the popcorn....

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2012 : 11:49:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Also remember that very few of us are trained to tow a load with teh profile our boats have. Much windage aloft, strange centre of gravity, and unusual handling.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Extremely good point. Quoted to drive it home.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2012 : 12:28:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Stumbled across this looking fo rthe different load ratings and thought it worthy of a cross post. Have a read.

http://www.sherline.com/lmbook.htm

Also remember that very few of us are trained to tow a load with teh profile our boats have. Much windage aloft, strange centre of gravity, and unusual handling.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">This is particularly true in tom's case. I think his boat is a fin keel.

Edited by - John Russell on 01/17/2012 12:29:49

JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2012 : 12:31:09

Here's what Dodge says on their site:
Dodge Durango features class-leading towing with either available engine. The standard 3.6L Pentastar® V6 hauls up to 6,200 pounds+ – almost 1,000 pounds more than Ford Explorer. Models with a HEMI® V8 can pull up to a 7,400-pound+ load. And when you're pulling that much weight, it's nice to know the standard trailer sway control+ helps you maintain control of whatever it is you feel the need to pull.

and the use the following picture to illustrate the point:

I would suspect that they open themselves to serious lawsuits if they use these kinds of claims and images without some justification for them. The article that talks about standardization of towing claims is very interesting, and hopefully that will help level the playing field a good bit and give us all a sense of comfort. One important note I took from the article was that towing capacity might drop some, and in some cases it might even be over 1000 lbs. If the Durango/Jeep GC lose that much (there wasn't any suggestion as to whose trucks would fare the worst). That should still put the V8 Jeep GC/Durango towing capacity above the theoretical weight for a C25+trailer, although some of the numbers I've seen thrown around on here suggest we might be pushing things a bit.

Ultimately I don't disagree that this is a safety issue - trying to tow my boat with a Yugo would be stupid. Even towing it with a Honda Pilot would be stupid, even "just around the corner". And I agree with the comment above about constantly pushing the 90% limit.

Tom, good luck however you choose to go! For me, I need the 3rd row seats (not an option on the Jeep), and need 'em to be big enough for adults. The Durango is the "smallest" SUV that has comes close to having big 3rd row seats, so we're still leaning in that direction even if it can't tow the boat. And even if it can/could, I might still chicken out for some of the moves and hire a tow truck to haul it for me, thus offloading some of the liability.

Edited by - JimGo on 01/17/2012 12:48:35

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9015 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2012 : 13:02:37

Looks like Tom H. got his money's worth from this thread...

It will serve well as our annual (at least) dance around this topic.

Be careful out there--on a trailer, the C-25 is a hunk.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/17/2012 14:53:33

tomh
1st Mate

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USA
83 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2012 : 13:23:28

Guys,

I had no idea that asking this question would lead to such an extensive and spirited discussion. Thanks for all of your feedback and ideas.

My own philosophy is to "do it right the first time" so I try to live by a few guidelines such as:

1. Anything that makes life simple is good; anything that makes it more complex is evil.

2. The things that others do to us will never be as bad as the things that we do to ourselves.

and

3. Never do anything by hand that you can do with power tools.

Sounds like the best thing to do is to buy an SUV to handle the ice chest, beer and other stuff and borrow a friend's pick up truck or find a RV person to haul the boat twice a year.

Tomh

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9015 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2012 : 14:52:01

Tom--Yes, you struck a time-worn "nerve" in this group!

Good conclusion--I suspect just the savings on gas will more than pay for the hauling charges. Hope we helped!

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2012 : 16:54:56

Another take on the story...

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimGo
 Here's what Dodge says on their site:
Dodge Durango features class-leading towing with either available engine. The standard 3.6L Pentastar® V6 hauls up to 6,200 pounds+ – almost 1,000 pounds more than Ford Explorer. Models with a HEMI® V8 can pull up to a 7,400-pound+ load. And when you're pulling that much weight, it's nice to know the standard trailer sway control+ helps you maintain control of whatever it is you feel the need to pull.

and the use the following picture to illustrate the point:

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Some of you know what I do for a living. One of the most horrific crash scenes I visited this past year was a Chev Pickup with flatbed trailer that hit the brakes too late and drove through a Chev Impala. It didn't help that the truck had a plow mount (but no plow) n its nose. With the weight of the truck and trailer, the impala was opened up like a tuna can. Go easy out there guys. http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20111027/off-duty-york-region-police-officer-killed-crash-111027?hub=TorontoNewHome

Edited by - Prospector on 01/17/2012 17:01:49

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2012 : 17:00:19

One other thing to consider: The new 2011 Durango is a larger vehicle than the older models, and it has a slightly larger tow rating.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2012 : 17:20:45

I want one of those Autoboathomes I saw on TV.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2012 : 18:52:11

When I was married, we owned a travel trailer. Not a really big one, but it did measure 30' and almost 7k#. Tongue pull. Double axle with brakes.

Initially I pulled it with our Tahoe. Yes, the Tahoe could pull it. But, it wasn't easy. I had to pull in 3rd, so the engine was really running (350), the front end was a bit bouncy, and I got 6.5 to 7 MPG. I had the brake controller well balanced so the whole rig as a unit would squat when braking. I always drove very carefully and did my ultimate best to anticipate having to stop. I was never presented with a panic stop situation.

After ALOT of towing experience, browsing RV forums and reading the frequent towing threads I decided to listen to the RV'rs and bought an F350, 4 door long bed. Monster 460 so I didn't really improve my MPG..."The Beast" got 9 MPG towing or not....but what it did do was drastically improve my towing experience. I could now pull in OD so the engine wasn't racing, and it was so powerful and stable, it was like the trailer wasn't even back there. Starting and stopping was no issue whatsoever, and the trailer was always very well controlled. What a difference that longer wheelbase made! Plus, the better brakes, transmission gearing....tranny cooler...the complete package.

What I'm getting at....is that in regards to towing, I'm speaking from actual practical experience. I've pulled big, awkward, heavy loads with both a vehicle "rated" for it and a vehicle designed and built for it. Worlds apart...really. I can't believe the risks I took pulling that trailer with the Tahoe.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2012 : 21:30:53

On our last trip to the San Juans the trailer caught the lip between lanes (being re-surfaced) on Interstate 5 at 55MPH. The trailer moved left into the fast lane and took the Yukon with it. Tail wagged the dog. Scared the living crap out of me and my family. Luckily no one was in the lane. I realized we had no room for error, let alone any serious emergency situation. We have not towed with that vehicle again.

Picture yourself going down the Interstate and something goes wrong in front of you, debris on the road, accident, deer, whatever. Can you brake and/or swerve to avoid it? If you aren't sure you can control your vehicle and trailer in that situation then you need another setup. Go big or stay home IMHO.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9015 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2012 : 21:43:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Diver
 ...I've pulled big, awkward, heavy loads with both a vehicle "rated" for it and a vehicle designed and built for it. Worlds apart...really. I can't believe the risks I took pulling that trailer with the Tahoe.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">There's the key, IMHO. Passenger cars and, for the most part, SUVs, are designed and built to carry people and stuff in their interiors. Towing is an afterthought for the designers. ("By the way guys, if we put a hitch on that thing, how much do you think it could pull?") In contrast, the differences between an F-250, F-350 and F-450 are in large part their designs and construction for towing.

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2012 : 07:15:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Sounds like the best thing to do is to buy an SUV to handle the ice chest, beer and other stuff and borrow a friend's pick up truck or find a RV person to haul the boat twice a year. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I have noticed that the local U-Haul centers advertising that their box trucks are rated for towing 10,000 lbs. You may be able to just rent a truck for your twice a year event.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2012 : 10:30:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tomh
 . . . Anything that makes life simple is good; anything that makes it more complex is evil . . .<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You mean like the government is trying to do with the internet?

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9015 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2012 : 10:59:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OJ
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tomh
 . . . Anything that makes life simple is good; anything that makes it more complex is evil . . .<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You mean like the government is trying to do with the internet?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I didn't know this was "Talk Like a Pirate Week."

Edited by - on

SEAN
Admiral

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USA
772 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2012 : 11:55:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">the differences between an F-250, F-350 and F-450 are in large part their designs and construction for towing.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

well I had a 90 4x4 f250 it was a bad primer rust out with 150,000 miles ..and would tow early morning to avoid busy roads ..

I have a 05 f350 diesel now ..and big difference in trucks , feels way safer ..
towing the less then 10 miles i go .

a jeep sounds scary ..lol
stopping and handling is more the issue

figure specs are dry weights my boat is pretty full ..

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2012 : 18:50:56

We've towed our current C25 with a 1/2t, 3/4t and 1t. For the cost difference we wouldn't spend the extra money for anything larger than a 1/2t - and we live in the hilly terrain of SW PA.

Edited by - on

skybird
Navigator

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USA
135 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2012 : 19:51:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 Yep, it's January.

Some will say they safely towed their house with a Volkswagen. The truth is as Randy said. It's not in the going but in the stopping. Your boat will weigh at least 3 Tons! That's probably twice the weight of the Grand Cherokee. I know I wouldn't want that much weight behind me in a vehicle that barely meets the specs.

I wouldn't consider towing my boat with less than an F250 long wheelbase equipped for towing.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ditto

Edited by - on

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