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 New Jib = 110, 135, or 150?		  New Topic  Topic Locked
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Carl in LA
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USA
284 Posts
Initially Posted - 12/29/2016 :  17:31:00  Show Profile
Is there a consensus on selecting a 110, 135, or 150% jib for these vessels?

I'm going to need a new jib for the new baby. She's a wing keel and I sail in an area that generally has light winds but will have me bucking 20-knts upwind (Hurricane Gulch) when I'm headed home in the late afternoon during the summer.

The boat has a CDI Flexible Furler.

Also, a tri-radial or laminate sure would look cool up there:)

Carl
Catalina 250 - Pretty Good Boat

Carl in LA
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Response Posted - 12/29/2016 :  17:45:53  Show Profile
Follow up...

Does it make any sense to have the jib cut short enough to ride over the lifelines?
Catalina 250 - Pretty Good Boat
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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/29/2016 :  18:03:56  Show Profile
I would never go with a 150 on the C250, especially if you're going to have 20 kt winds on a regular basis.

When I was shopping for a new headsail, I chose 110 because I was doing a lot of tacking on a river. The frequency of tacking was the tiebreaker for me. My prior sail was the original Catalina-supplied 110, so I was familiar with that size already, and generally happy with it. Great, fast tacking and points very high. Many people get the wing keel with a 135. I think there may be one C250 owner with a 150 on this board, so he can speak up with his opinions. There are many C25 owners with 150s, but it's a different boat, so I would give more weight to other C250 owners.

FYI, I now own a C34MkII with a too-large 150, and I'm likely to buy a smaller headsail this winter. So I "put my money where my mouth is."

My C250 was sold with the new Doyle 110 headsail. My original Catalina 110 headsail is in the house, and I do plan to sell it once the weather turns nice enough for me to get some good pictures of it. It has a strip of new fabric along the foot to repair a tear. It was used by PO and me for about 11 years (1999-2010), and then repaired and stored for 5 after I got my new sail. The sailmaker repaired it as a spare when he made my new sail, and it was never used after I got the new sail.

I want you to get the sail that you want, but my used one will be available if you're interested. You could dye it gray to make it look like a Kevlar laminate sail.
Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)
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HappyNow
1st Mate

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USA
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Response Posted - 12/29/2016 :  19:20:42  Show Profile
I bought #402 this year, and spent the summer sailing on Lake Tahoe, where this summer winds were typically 15 gusting to 20 or more. As opposed to boats I've sailed before on San Francisco Bay in similar winds, the 250 is typically overpowered, with excessive heel to 35 degrees or more in the gusts unless you have reefed the main and furled a significant portion of the jib, which doesn't help sail life or shape. There may be some archived topics on this subject, or on some other sailing message boards, as I remember seeing them earlier this year when I was trying to figure out why I was heeling so much. I made the mistake of terrifying the first mate on our first two trips out. I think after that I left the reef in for most of the summer which helps significantly, and frequently sailed with only the reefed main and no jib. On the other hand, the boat is stable enough that it will not go past 45 degrees and you can't bury the rail, and at that point it's almost impossible to keep the boat from turning upwind and depowering. I spoke with the North sails rep at Tahoe, who has ocean raced most of his life, and he definitely said the 110 is the right sail for these kinds of conditions.
Michael Levin
Sailin' on Sunshine
C250 #402 WK
Lake Tahoe
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Carl in LA
Captain

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USA
284 Posts
Response Posted - 12/29/2016 :  20:25:36  Show Profile
Hummmm...

Two quick votes for 110...

This boat has a (worn) 110 right now...

I'm thinking I like the self tacking potential of the 110 too.
Catalina 250 - Pretty Good Boat
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9015 Posts
Response Posted - 12/29/2016 :  20:26:34  Show Profile
Wing keel or water ballast? My recollection (possibly faulty as a non-250-owner) is that Catalina has offered the 135 as an option only on the WK model. And accordingly, the WK model has differently positioned genoa tracks from the WB.

Another clue that Catalina has judged the C-250 to be a little tender is that they originally offered and then quickly withdrew a tall mast version.

So, I would rule out a 150--you might not even be able to sheet it properly with the existing rigging. And I would probably consider a 135 only if I had a WK, unless I sailed exclusively in very light conditions. The WB model might not be properly rigged for the 135, in terms of the placement of the genoa track--do any WB owners here use a 135? Can you get a proper sheeting angle to be able to flatten it? If the sheet runs too vertically from the clew, the sail will be too full in moderate winds, causing excessive heeling and poor performance--in other words, uncomfortable and slow.

BTW, this is an example of the value of putting some details about your boat in a "Signature" in your Profile. For C-25 owners, the keys are year, rig and keel. For the C-250, the most important spec is probably WK or WB--they are significantly different boats.
Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge
Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/29/2016 20:43:04
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Carl in LA
Captain

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USA
284 Posts
Response Posted - 12/29/2016 :  20:32:09  Show Profile
I'm warming up to that idea... and I could use a sharpie to draw in the carbon fiber reinforcing:)


quote:
[i]Originally posted by TakeFive

I want you to get the sail that you want, but my used one will be available if you're interested. You could dye it gray to make it look like a Kevlar laminate sail.
Catalina 250 - Pretty Good Boat
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Carl in LA
Captain

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USA
284 Posts
Response Posted - 12/29/2016 :  20:41:24  Show Profile
She is a wing keel...

Wow... I'm reading this as a third vote for a 110.

Guess I'm not going to need those leather spreader boots I ordered from Catalina Direct - ha!

Also... it is so helpful to have an active forum with multiple expert responses within a couple hours.

Appreciate that.

Carl





quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

Wing keel or water ballast? My recollection (possibly faulty as a non-250-owner) is that Catalina has offered the 135 as an option only on the WK model. And accordingly, the WK model has differently positioned genoa tracks from the WB.

Another clue that Catalina has judged the C-250 to be a little tender is that they originally offered and then quickly withdrew a tall mast version.

So, I would rule out a 150--you might not even be able to sheet it properly with the existing rigging. And I would probably consider a 135 only if I had a WK, unless I sailed exclusively in very light conditions. The WB model might not be properly rigged for the 135, in terms of the placement of the genoa track--do any WB owners here use a 135? Can you get a proper sheeting angle to be able to flatten it? If the sheet runs too vertically from the clew, the sail will be too full in moderate winds, causing excessive heeling and poor performance--in other words, uncomfortable and slow.
Catalina 250 - Pretty Good Boat
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9015 Posts
Response Posted - 12/29/2016 :  21:13:52  Show Profile
Mine was not a vote for the 110, given you have the wing. If the CDI is adequate in size, the 135 is a possibility--it can always be rolled down a little--a foam luff helps maintain shape when you do.
Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge
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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts
Response Posted - 12/29/2016 :  21:21:37  Show Profile
OP has a wing keel, which Dave correctly pointed out has a larger FF4 furler to handle a 135. (WB model has FF2)

I agree that 110 is best for most needs, but I've gotten beaten up here before for pushing that too hard, so I'm trying to leave room for others to chime in. One time I said "never a 150" and I think someone get really offended (though can't find that thread now).

Most people who have sailed other boats think of the 250 as very tender. I like to think of it as light and nimble. It always accelerated very nicely (but I'm not a racer, so not that picky). I'd always reef before leaving the dock if forecast was for 10 knots, but the boat would easily get to hull speed under those conditions, so it was a very enjoyable sail. Running full sail at 10+ knots could be a struggle due to excessive rounding up (due as much to weather helm as it was to heeling) and the need to constantly dump air. You just need to adjust your habits to reef sooner than you most people are used to.

Give it a day or so to hear other opinions. I expect that there are some who will suggest 135, so you should hear them out. Here's a past discussion that I found:

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=29360

FWIW, I'm probably going to get a 135 for my C34. It's a bigger, heavier boat, and the Chesapeake is known for dead air in the summer. I've flirted with getting a 110 and switching between it and my current 150 depending on conditions, but I really want just one sail on the furler for the whole season. I'll probably get a foam luff to allow a little better reefing for very windy days.
Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)
Edited by - TakeFive on 12/29/2016 21:25:27
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Carl in LA
Captain

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USA
284 Posts
Response Posted - 12/30/2016 :  07:02:13  Show Profile
That helps with my understanding of the situation... The boat has a FF2 which to me - is a pretty small furler... so it makes sense that it was matched to the existing 110 jib.

quote:
Originally posted by TakeFive

OP has a wing keel, which Dave correctly pointed out has a larger FF4 furler to handle a 135. (WB model has FF2)
Catalina 250 - Pretty Good Boat
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Carl in LA
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Response Posted - 12/30/2016 :  07:08:32  Show Profile
More good news... one of the best characteristics of my first sailboat which was a Cal 25 - was its ability to accelerate and recover speed after a tack - looking forward to that rush again... perhaps that aspect is another reason for the 110 - a quicker set and recovery of the sail after a tack.

Cool.

quote:
Originally posted by TakeFive

I like to think of it as light and nimble. It always accelerated very nicely
Catalina 250 - Pretty Good Boat
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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts
Response Posted - 12/30/2016 :  09:28:05  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by Carl in LA

That helps with my understanding of the situation... The boat has a FF2 which to me - is a pretty small furler... so it makes sense that it was matched to the existing 110 jib.

That's a little surprising, as I thought that all the wing keel models came with FF4. But there is another thread where a guy with a 2008 wing keel had a FF2 (which he decided to upgrade to FF4 for his 135). So maybe they cut costs on the newer boats a bit.

You might want to put info (hull#, model year, sailing range) into your signature, since these things can affect the advice that you get.
Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)
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Tradewind
Admiral

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USA
531 Posts
Response Posted - 12/30/2016 :  15:45:05  Show Profile
The size of the headsail depends on the area and type of sailing you do. Coastal, inland lake, racing or cruising. My vote would be the 110 based on your post.

The previous owner installed a 150 on a CDI on my 1998WK, I purchased the boat in 2006 and lake sailed in Georgia with the 150, not the best idea on a lake with shifting and gusting winds. I had a lot to learn sailing this size boat, coming from a heavy 36' Now that I'm on the coast the 150 works for me. A 135 also came with the boat and it would probably be a better choice but it has no sunbrella furling cover. The local sailmaker wants $400 for the cover and I've put that expense on the back burner since I'm comfortable with the 150, I usually roll it in starting around 12 kts and fully furled above 15kts with a reef in the main. I don't race so I'm not concerned with the lack of perfect shape when partially furled but at 5 to 10 kts it works well for me.
1998 250WK #331
CILCIA
Steve
Pensacola, FL
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DavidCrosby
Navigator

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USA
229 Posts
Response Posted - 12/30/2016 :  16:17:29  Show Profile  Visit DavidCrosby's Homepage
My vote is in favor of a 110. I have never desired anymore on my C250 WK or other past boats for that matter.
David Crosby "Small World"
'02 C250 WK #614
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Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
833 Posts
Response Posted - 12/30/2016 :  16:39:25  Show Profile
Carl,

Welcome to the forum, you are getting a lot of responses to your post.
As Rick as pointed out, there is a lot of room for discussion.

Here are a few questions to consider.
Will you be sailing alone, or are you the only experienced sailor on board?
That would point you to a 110% jib.

Will your passengers be afraid of healing more than 25 degrees?
That would point you to a 110% jib.

Will you be racing and have a crew of three?
That would point you to a 150% jib.

Will you be sailing a good distance in mild conditions (such as to Catalina Island)?
That would point you to a 135% jib.

The answer to the questions determines your sail choice.
Also, there are other readers from different parts of the country who are also looking for new sails.
On this forum, posts live forever (we hope).

OK, I’m off my soapbox.

From your other post, you are the new owner of a C250-WK, Hull-922 (I’m guessing was built in 2007)
You are sailing in the LA-county area, which has year-round sailing and usually mild conditions.

I have a friend who previously owned a C250-WK, Hull-692 (2003).
He sailed out of Newport Beach, CA. He bought to a 135 jib and loved the upgrade.

Here’s a link to the Photo Gallery where he posted some pictures sailing with his 135% jib.
https://www.catalina-capri-25s.net/cgi-local/MBR_gallery.cgi?Album+1084+22

Here’s also a link to an archive post: “Better light wind performance”
Scroll through the post for Forum User: Piseas
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=25203

In my case, I have a 2005 C250WB, Hull-793.
I have a 150% jib, which fits on the standard CDI-FF2 furler.
My case is different and I don’t recommend a 150% jib for you.
Our sailing club has weekly races during the summer and often they cancel the races due to no wind.
I also sail with a crew of three and on a good day, we are healed at 45 degrees.
When the boat was new, my wife would sail. Now she stays home.

Like I said, there’s room for discussion and depending on what you have and what you want, there are choices available.
Russ
Russ Johnson
2005 C250WB Hull 793
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Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
833 Posts
Response Posted - 12/30/2016 :  16:48:16  Show Profile
Carl,

I can also give you some background on some design changes over the year, references above.

Standing Rigging/Jib Options:
The original (1995) C250 only had the water-ballast model.
The shrouds connected to chainplates at the hull/deck joint.
The wide spreaders made sailing a 110% jib the largest headsail.
Because only one jib was sold, the jib tracks were only about 2-feet long.

On the C250 winged-keel, the shrouds connected to chainplates on the deck/cabin top.
They had shorted spreaders and longer jib tracks.
The C250WK was sold with a standard 110% jib or a 135% jib option.

Later, the C250WK-Tall was built.
This was only built for a few years.

The C250WB was later changed to match the C250WK shroud/chainplates.
At that time, both models were sold with a standard 110% jib or a 135% jib option.
I have a 2005 C250WB, Hull-793. At that time I could have ordered a 135% jib.

Roller Furlers:
Here’s a link to the “Manuals and Brochures” section of the website.
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/manbro/manbro.asp
The C250WB was delivered with the CDI-FF2

I checked the CDI website and here’s the link.
http://www.sailcdi.com/flexible-furlers
FF2 Main Stay Length: 29'
FF4 Main Stay Length: 33'

Here’s a link to the “C250 Owners Manual”
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/manbro/C250OwnersMan.pdf
On the Sail Plan (Page-22) Measurement “I” is 29’.

Since the FF4 is 33’ then I’m guessing it was only delivered for the C250WK-Tall

Russ
Russ Johnson
2005 C250WB Hull 793
Edited by - Russ.Johnson on 12/30/2016 16:48:50
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9015 Posts
Response Posted - 12/30/2016 :  21:37:22  Show Profile
My understanding is the CDI FF4 has a larger drum, which allows for a headsail with a longer foot (more wraps of the furling line on the drum). From what I saw, the FF2 was originally standard, and at some point the WK came with the FF4, but maybe only if it was ordered with the optional 135 genoa. I don't know that the FF2 can't handle the 135, but it appeared Catalina didn't think so. The drum size is the critical dimension.
Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge
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Carl in LA
Captain

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USA
284 Posts
Response Posted - 12/31/2016 :  08:05:54  Show Profile
Thanks Russ...

Reality is that I will mostly sail alone... Perhaps on race day I can round up a crew or two.

I'm not a heeling sailor - I reef early and often.

Catalina Island is part of the plan - but conceding my sailing adventures to a 25-footer means Catalina only on the best of weather conditions - my sailing limit on a slightly bigger boat (Newport 30) was six foot seas... We shall see how the little 250 handles swell and waves.

I read the linked thread which was helpful - the 135 was a success for piseas.

Also good to know a 150 will fit on the little FF2 furler. That thing just looks so small:)

Carl
Catalina 250 - Pretty Good Boat
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Carl in LA
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USA
284 Posts
Response Posted - 12/31/2016 :  08:07:49  Show Profile
Russ... another reason the internet and forums have revolutionized our world - sharing of knowledge that would otherwise be difficult to gather...



quote:
Originally posted by Russ.Johnson

Carl,

I can also give you some background on some design changes over the year, references above.

...

Since the FF4 is 33’ then I’m guessing it was only delivered for the C250WK-Tall

Russ
Catalina 250 - Pretty Good Boat
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Carl in LA
Captain

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USA
284 Posts
Response Posted - 12/31/2016 :  08:10:01  Show Profile
you got that right - I can't imagine trying to haul in all that sail using a puny high-strength 3/16 line just to make it all fit on the furler drum. Hope it turns out that you can use a 1/4-inch line and pull in all 135%.

Carl


quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

My understanding is the CDI FF4 has a larger drum, which allows for a headsail with a longer foot (more wraps of the furling line on the drum). From what I saw, the FF2 was originally standard, and at some point the WK came with the FF4, but maybe only if it was ordered with the optional 135 genoa. I don't know that the FF2 can't handle the 135, but it appeared Catalina didn't think so. The drum size is the critical dimension.
Catalina 250 - Pretty Good Boat
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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/31/2016 :  16:23:31  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by Carl in LA

...Also good to know a 150 will fit on the little FF2 furler. That thing just looks so small:)

This may depend on how tightly you wrap it. Tighter means more wraps, which means more line in the drum, which means the drum my fill up and jam. Furling in a heavy blow could wrap the sail tight enough that your drum jams without getting it totally furled - just at the time you don't want the sail out.

I don't know whether the FF2 uses a different foil or car/ferrule, but it might be worth a call to CDI to see whether they could sell you the needed parts (drum, cup, etc.) to covert to FF4.

Or just make it easy and get another 110.
Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)
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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 12/31/2016 :  17:22:37  Show Profile
Even if a 150 will fit your F2 furler, I have serious doubts that you'll be able to use it efficiently much of the time. The fully unfurled 150 can only be used in light air. In even moderate winds you'll have to begin furling it to keep the boat on its feet. When it's deeply furled in strong winds, it will have poor shape. I think over the wide windspeed spectrum, you'll get better overall performance out of a 130. If you really want a good light air sail, you might consider a cruising spinnaker, although you should try to get the opinion of someone who has flown one on a C250. I don't remember anyone on the forum saying they had done so. A cruising chute would be so powerful that I suspect it wouldn't take much of a gust to overpower the C250.

Put me down on the side of a 110 or 130. I think either would be workable. I wouldn't buy a cruising chute without hearing persuasive comments from someone who has actually used one on a C250.
Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore
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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/31/2016 :  17:35:16  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by TakeFive

quote:
Originally posted by Carl in LA

...Also good to know a 150 will fit on the little FF2 furler. That thing just looks so small:)

This may depend on how tightly you wrap it. Tighter means more wraps, which means more line in the drum, which means the drum my fill up and jam. Furling in a heavy blow could wrap the sail tight enough that your drum jams without getting it totally furled - just at the time you don't want the sail out...

Obviously I got this a little backwards. What I meant to say is that to ensure ability to furl in heavy winds with a 135 or (especially) a 150, you may have to put so many wraps of line on your furler that you need small HT line, or excessive tension (and perfect fairlead alignment) on the furling line every time you let the sail out to ensure the sail comes out fully without jamming or chafing on the drum as the large amount of line fills the drum.
Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9015 Posts
Response Posted - 01/01/2017 :  13:07:33  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by TakeFive

...Obviously I got this a little backwards...
I wasn't going to say anything --indeed the jam would tend to be when pulling the sail out, although it could impair rolling it up if the jam is serious. Keeping some tension on the furling line when pulling the sail out is important, as is the lead angle to the drum (as mentioned). If, for a larger sail, you need a smaller diameter line for the FF2, the FF4 becomes more appealing--I wouldn't want smaller than 1/4" for hauling in a sizable genny. Both models have an optional ball-bearing assembly for the drum, in place of the standard plastic disk bearing. Many sailors here and on other forums have appreciated that upgrade for rolling up the sail--some have said they didn't notice a significant difference. (I wouldn't know--I had a Hood furler with ball bearings.)
Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge
Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/01/2017 13:11:48
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TEM58
Navigator

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Response Posted - 01/01/2017 :  16:23:50  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

If you really want a good light air sail, you might consider a cruising spinnaker, although you should try to get the opinion of someone who has flown one on a C250. I don't remember anyone on the forum saying they had done so. A cruising chute would be so powerful that I suspect it wouldn't take much of a gust to overpower the C250


http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=25145&SearchTerms=Spinnaker

Thought I recalled some info that was posted. Looks like both Paul and Henk had some success with spinnakers. Ian also posted some experiences.
Tim M
“Perfect Match II”
2003 C350 #35
Cruising FL
PO "Wine Down"
2000 C250 WK #453
PO "Perfect Match"
1983 C25 SR/SK #3932
Lake Belton
Belton, TX
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